Messages: 36
Language: English
arkadio (User's profile) October 11, 2009, 3:56:19 PM
I am fine with noun-adjective agreement with respect to case, and also with plural adjectives by themselves. It is simply the mandatory use of the plural adjective with the plural noun that has never appealed to me. I've heard, and sometimes made, the following arguments:
(1) Flexible word order requires some degree of redundancy. An example is given by Piron (I am paraphrasing here):
"We support the amendments to the resolution proposed by India."
Piron points out that the choice of propinita or propinitaj lets the audience know whether it was resolution or the amendments that India proposed. This argument has never convinced me. The redundancy only helps with a comparatively small set of sentences in which one thing and several things are juxtaposed. If there had been two resolutions or just one amendment, noun-adjective agreement would not have supplied any clarification. Another argument is
(2) It is easier to shift endings for several consecutive words than for a single word.
Maybe. I tried this out in Russian, and it seemed to be true. But this is probably due to the fact that one learns to speak this way in Russian, and not to intrinsic ease.
(3) Since the adjective often stands in for the noun, it is a good idea to have plural adjectives. So, for the sake of consistency, adjectives modifying plural nouns should always be plural.
Okay, if consistency is the only goal. If you could forgo a little consistency for the sake of logic and economy, you could allow the adjective to remain singular except when it stands in for the noun. The last argument is
(4) A plural noun simply "should" have a plural modifier. Foreign friends have told me that English adjectives seem "bare" to them.
To me, this is not really an argument, but a statement of taste and aesthetics.
Has anyone another argument? Or a reason to to be convinced by any of the forgoing? Thanks, and apologies for the length of the post.
tommjames (User's profile) October 11, 2009, 5:50:09 PM
That aside, I think you're right in that the arguments in it's favour don't stand up from the point of view of pure simplicity, logic and economy. You probably already know that Zamenhof himself proposed to get rid of it, describing it as "superfluous ballast".
I myself quite like the way the concordant "aj"s and "oj"s impart a particular aesthetic to the sound of Esperanto, which I find quite pleasing.
ceigered (User's profile) October 11, 2009, 6:46:59 PM
Rogir (User's profile) October 11, 2009, 9:19:16 PM
Miland (User's profile) October 11, 2009, 11:56:31 PM
Zamenhof was coerced in 1894 into proposing "improvements", and the Esperanto community rejected them. The next generation of "improvers" attempted deception. Once they were found out, the answer was 'No' again.
patrik (User's profile) October 12, 2009, 4:17:05 AM
The Accusative in Interlinguistics: http://donh.best.vwh.net/Languages/akuzativo.html
The Accusative in Esperanto: http://donh.best.vwh.net/Languages/akuzativo2.html
ceigered (User's profile) October 12, 2009, 6:43:46 AM
Miland:The next generation of "improvers" attempted deception. Once they were found out, the answer was 'No' again.What's this deception? I've heard about it but never quite figured out what people point to when referring to it. Personally I don't see how deception works in with language development, to me it's like saying the French deceived the English into using defective counterfeit latin roots made using lesser quality materials thus making English inferior in quality - thus my confusion
Iĉo (User's profile) October 12, 2009, 6:44:40 AM
"La cxevalo kaj la hundoj la katon kaj la musojn cxasis forta brunan etajn malicaj."
tommjames:I myself quite like the way the concordant "aj"s and "oj"s impart a particular aesthetic to the sound of Esperanto, which I find quite pleasing.Actually, that's just about the only thing I don't like about the language. I think it just sounds silly when you've got a phrase that has a sequence of words ending in ajn ajn ajn ojn. I'm trying to learn to love it.
tommjames (User's profile) October 12, 2009, 9:14:09 AM
Iĉo:I'm trying to learn to love it.Give it time.
ceigered (User's profile) October 12, 2009, 11:51:04 AM
"Oi, kim, now look at moooooooi...."
That said, I swear my 'right' sounds like 'roite' (with a US 'o') more and more everyday.