შეტყობინებები: 9
ენა: English
Scalex (მომხმარებლის პროფილი) 26 ნოემბერი, 2009 01:05:28
I am eating pie
I eat pie
Both are in the present - the former refers to an action I am currently doing (cherry, and it's really very tasty), whereas the latter refers to an action which I am presently in the habit of doing.
How would I distinguish these in Esperanto?
As an aside, having looked up the verb "to taste" in vortaro, I'm not sure what it means. Is it as in "Mi gustis la pomtorton" - "I tasted the apple pie" or "La cxeriztorto gustis bonega" - "the cherry pie tasted great" ?
Oŝo-Jabe (მომხმარებლის პროფილი) 26 ნოემბერი, 2009 01:47:48
Mi estas manĝanta torton. - I am eating pie.
Mi manĝadas torton. - I eat pie?
Scalex:As an aside, having looked up the verb "to taste" in vortaro, I'm not sure what it means. Is it as in "Mi gustis la pomtorton" - "I tasted the apple pie" or "La ĉeriztorto gustis bonega" - "the cherry pie tasted great" ?I think "Mi gustumis la pomtortojn" and "La ĉeriztorto gustis bonega" would be more correct. "Gusti" is the quality of the food, while "gustumi" is the action of the taster.
erinja (მომხმარებლის პროფილი) 26 ნოემბერი, 2009 02:05:31
There isn't an easy Esperanto way to say "I eat pie", to specify that you do it habitually but are not doing it now.
The usual Esperanto way to say "I am eating pie" is indeed "Mi manĝas torton", which also doubles as, I eat pie in general, I have nothing against eating pie.
You will see this most often in a context like "Mi manĝas viandon" / "Mi ne manĝas viandon" (I eat meat vs. I do not eat meat - a meat eater versus a vegetarian).
Oŝo-Jabe is right that "gusti" refers to a quality of the food. So you could say "La torto gustas bone" (The pie tastes good). Or "La torto estas bongusta" (The pie is tasty)
Oŝo-Jabe is, however, less correct about "gustumi"
"Gustumi" actually means "to eat a taste of something". So a chef tastes her food as she cooks it, to ensure that it is spiced correctly; that's gustumi. If you can taste the apple in the pie, you could say "Mi sentas la guston de la pomo". That's what I normally would say. Or "Mi sentas la ĉerizguston tre forte!" (I can strongly taste the cherry)
"Senti" (literally "to feel") is used far more in Esperanto than in English, and it refers to all of the sense. So you can senti emociojn (feel emotions) like in English, and you can feel someone's touch (senti tuŝon). But you can also "senti odoron" (literally to feel an odor - really, to smell something). You can "senti guston" (taste something). You can "senti sonon" (literally to feel a sound - it's not used in the same places as "aŭdi sonon", to hear a sound. It is more in the sense of detecting the presence of a sound, like if you heard a train whistle in the far distance)
tommjames (მომხმარებლის პროფილი) 26 ნოემბერი, 2009 11:48:16
Scalex:I'm not the best at describing the terminology for English grammar, but I mean the difference between the two to be as follows:Esperanto is somewhat meager when it comes to aspect marking and perhaps with good reason (simplicity), but I have almost always found context to be quite sufficient to make the distinction in statements like mi manĝas torton. If you want to be more clear about the precise aspect of the verb you can always make use of additional time-sense words like 'nun', 'ĉiutage' or whatever suits.
I am eating pie
I eat pie
How would I distinguish these in Esperanto?
Regarding the ad suffix, its usage is not limited to single actions that persist in a long drawn out fashion; it can also be used to show a repeating action that happens often or regularly, and as such some people suggest that ad lends itself well to the habitual aspect of the imperfective. While I intend neither to endorse nor disapprove of that kind of usage here what I will say is in my experience it is generally difficult to make use of ad this way with any reliability; all too often the meaning of the verb can be confused and in the case of mi manĝadas torton I would certainly interpret it as Erinja's "I keep eating pie on and on", rather than the habitual "I eat pie often/with regularity".
PMEG gives the example of "viziti → vizitadi = ofte, regule viziti", probably because it makes better sense to think of visitation as a regular thing than as a single action that persists on and on, and so in this example it's clearer. For manĝi though I don't think the meaning would be quite so obvious.
Miland (მომხმარებლის პროფილი) 26 ნოემბერი, 2009 11:57:07
It would appear that the inherent flexibility of um as an undefined suffix lends itself to allowing words that have it develop more than one meaning over time.
erinja (მომხმარებლის პროფილი) 27 ნოემბერი, 2009 00:18:54
Miland (მომხმარებლის პროფილი) 27 ნოემბერი, 2009 10:35:14
erinja:I never hear "gustumi" except in the sense of trying a little piece to see how it tastes. My source is the PV, which I tend to believe over PIV in case of doubt. I feel like PIV makes stuff up.PV is 40 years old. The editors of PIV (the 2005 edition of which no less an Esperantist than Marjorie Boulton has referred to as 'our best dictionary') have been Akademianoj and editors of Monato and work as a team, so that they represent good and recent usage.
Wells' dictionary also defines gustumi as 'taste (with the tongue)', and PMEG (6th box, 3rd example) defines gustumi as senti guston, provi guston. These are precisely the first two in PIV 2005 - and in both, the sensory meaning comes first.
The best available sources therefore indicate that gustumi can mean 'taste' in the sensory sense, apart from the other uses.
tommjames (მომხმარებლის პროფილი) 27 ნოემბერი, 2009 10:49:01
Miland (მომხმარებლის პროფილი) 27 ნოემბერი, 2009 12:26:20
tommjames:Miland your link to PMEG appears to direct back to a reply page at Lernu.net.Thanks, I've corrected that link.