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Plaĉi al mi and/or plaĉi min?

de ceigered, 2009-decembro-21

Mesaĝoj: 31

Lingvo: English

ceigered (Montri la profilon) 2009-decembro-21 07:46:19

Basic question - I never used "plaĉas" in regards to saying "I like this" but as some people do say "al mi plaĉas X" I was wondering if it is grammatically correct to take out the "al" and just make it "X plaĉas min" or "Min plaĉas X" (I like x, x pleases me).
Is that possible or not? (Personally, I prefer ŝati or ami, as "plaĉi" seems more ambiguous in the bad sense of the word).

Frankouche (Montri la profilon) 2009-decembro-21 09:47:48

I think that the -n can replace the preposition "al", so you could say : "jes, jes tiu donaco iomete placxas min".
But as a non-specialist, i let my correctors doing their job rido.gif

tommjames (Montri la profilon) 2009-decembro-21 10:25:48

Plaĉi is pretty much universally categorized as an intransitive verb, whose meaning is "to be pleasing" rather than "to please" in the sense of directly making someone pleased about something. The "al mi" is more a means of indicating your own personal sense of it being pleasing, along the lines of the "spertanto" definition given in PMEG. As such it would be, in my view, inappropriate to drop the preposition and replace with "n" because it could give the incorrect impression that there's some direct transitive action going on. That, as well as the fact it hardly ever appears and is generally considered to be "wrong" by most competent speakers.

ceigered (Montri la profilon) 2009-decembro-21 11:27:32

Cheers all. I get the feeling that "placxi -n" makes sense but just doesn't work or have the right nuance for some people so I'll go with "placxas al mi" for now.

From an abstract sense the differences between the two seem a bit sparse, but from a technical sense I can't make sense of "placxi al -" (without really thinking much, "placxi laux mi" seems more correct).

tommjames (Montri la profilon) 2009-decembro-21 12:11:13

ceigered:the differences between the two seem a bit sparse
To some extent I agree. But I think it's worth bearing in mind that there is a fundamental difference between simply being pleasing, and actually making someone feel a sense of appreciation of those pleasing qualities (ie, 'to please', as it would be in English). In some practical settings that difference may arguably be a bit sketchy, but I think it's definitely worth being aware of and recognizing the distinction even if one chooses not to acknowledge it when rationalizing which form is the "correct" one to use.

ceigered:I can't make sense of "placxi al -" (without really thinking much, "placxi laux mi" seems more correct
If you said ĝi plaĉas laŭ mi that would mean that in your opinion, it is pleasing. It wouldn't necessarily convey that you actually feel or sense that pleasingness as part of your own subjective experience (as opposed perhaps to someone else's). It certainly could do, since to have an opinion about something one is generally assumed to have had some form of experience with that thing, but it's not necessarily the case. Al then is the word we use.

horsto (Montri la profilon) 2009-decembro-21 13:19:56

tommjames is right, plaĉi is an intransitive verb, therefore it normally can not have an accusative object.
But also Frankouche is right, if the verb has no other accusative object, then you can use the accusative form instead of preposition + object (plaĉas min instead of plaĉas al mi)
The reason why al is used, is that mi in plaĉas al mi is the dative (dativo) object, same as for example in: doni al mi, respondi al mi, ...
The dative object in the german language is always expressed by the preposition al in Esperanto.

Rogir (Montri la profilon) 2009-decembro-21 15:15:55

Plaĉi al mi is more common, but both are correct. I don't see how there could be any confusion using ĝi plaĉas min.

Miland (Montri la profilon) 2009-decembro-21 20:35:16

ceigered:I was wondering if it is grammatically correct to take out the "al" and just make it "X plaĉas min" or "Min plaĉas X" (I like x, x pleases me).
Is that possible or not?
It is possible. In Butler's dictionary we have Min plaĉas as an example, so you may use it. As Rogir has indicated though, plaĉas al mi is the more customary usage.

RiotNrrd (Montri la profilon) 2009-decembro-22 04:09:40

Both forms are also correct in English.

In English, there is a subtle difference between the different forms, however.

Winning the lottery is pleasing me.
(Right now, I am being pleased by my win! Whee!)

Winning the lottery is pleasing to me.
(i.e., I'm totally in favor of it.)

In the first example, the state of being pleased is occurring right this very second. In the second example, there's no time sense - it is more a general description of something I find pleasing; yesterday, today, tomorrow, whenever.

I wonder if this slight difference in the English usage transfers over to "plaĉi"?

ceigered (Montri la profilon) 2009-decembro-22 05:38:28

This is all very interesting, thanks everybody for your input!

Concerning rationalising "plaĉas al mi", the best I can think of is if you think of the object or person giving off a 'pleasing' aura of some sort, as if they're radiating "pleasingness" or some sort of abstract concept lango.gif

Either that or maybe "al" indicates that there is some form of movement from the pleasing object to the person, as if it is streaming happiness (rido.gif this is the most unscientific thing I've said all week) to the person, where as "plaĉas min" seems to, as RiotNrrd, Tommjames and possibly others have said, just indicate that the pleasing object is immediately acting upon the person.

Hopefully that all made sense (I'm very worried about those unscientific concepts of happiness-transmission!). I wonder how those Loglans like lojban treat this kind of concept (probably by avoiding the issue entirely and just going with something like "ŝatas")

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