讯息： 72
语言: English
ceigered (显示个人资料) 2009年12月24日上午1:56:38
Frankouche:They are typically French, but some like scienco and manĝi are more latin/italian (mangia con me, per scienza!) Ok, so maybe "scienza" /'ʃɛntsa/ is pronounced differently to "scienco" /stsi'entso/, but written it looks closer keeping in mind that it has been slavicised a bit.
Do you really think that we all prononce esperanto the same way ? You're kidding !
By the way, words like :
manĝi : manger (french) = manĵe (fonetike)
ŝanĝi : changer = ŝanĵe
ŝanco : chance = ŝanse
scienco : science = sjense
aĉeti : acheter = aŝete
ĉar : car = kar
And many others !
Why should i prononce these typically french words in an another way ?
It's very very tiring ! And i won't ! most of the time
Either way, I won't be saying "noŭvej mes'ĝoj" instead of "new messages" (Yes, I'm looking at "mia angulo" right now) like I would in English. And while you French are awesome and all, you guys need to obey the rules too
I would have liked that these words would have been completely different, than resemble to the french one's.Same here. On very very rare occaisions I'll find myself accidentally pronouncing things with a French accent (e.g. manĝi) But nothing can be done at the moment
Z was certainly influenced by an anti-french (anglo saxon ?) lobby, as for the ci/vi pronouns ...What do you mean by Z?
(but yeah, the anti-romance language lobby probably chucked Z in for fun
Frankouche:We're talking about Esperanto though, not English, and not air crashes
That's why for exemple sometimes occurs airplanes accidents because even english is not standard and is difficult to understand.
Roberto12 (显示个人资料) 2009年12月24日上午10:11:19
Regarding C, it's the most out-of-place letter in the whole language. I would either have left it out, used it for CX, or kept it and used X as well for ks. What I like about the system, though, is that the five circumflexed letters form a meaningful group, which I call "the Klingon consonants"
darkweasel (显示个人资料) 2009年12月24日下午1:29:36
Of course we're all supposed to pronounce Esperanto similarly, or at least as similar as we can. If somebody said "kar" for "char" to me I wouldn't understand anything.
Zamenhof made Esperanto easier because he was so surprised by the simplicity of English - that's why he included, in the beginning, only "vi", no "ci", because English speakers may have a hard time distinguishing between these meanings. (At least he thought so.)
Often when borrowing French words keeping the spelling was more important than keeping the pronounciation (hey, Esperanto doesn't even have all these nasals!) - that's why "acheter" became "acheti" (not "asheti") - and "changhi" would probably be too hard to pronounce, so he made it "shanghi".
If you want people to understand you, try to stay as close to the official pronunciation as possible, even if the word is from French.
Frankouche (显示个人资料) 2009年12月24日下午3:49:13
And all of you can see that speaking with a different accent is difficult, and sometimes never happends.
Would it be easy, and would you like to say : Laŝta, forĵesi, ĉeamo, cuno, ĉipo, ĉuo...?
Why spending time to learn some words twice : in esperanto and in the foreign language from which it directly comes (if you want to learn it) ?
It can lead to make mistakes, which could be a paradox, for a propedeutic language.
So, for me, 2 acceptable solutions :
- change completely the word
- let some pronunciations as allophones, ex : aĉeti = aŝeti
What really disturb you in these propositions ?
darkweasel (显示个人资料) 2009年12月24日下午5:36:19
However, indeed with words like "spuro" I don't have any problems although this word starts with a ŝ sound in German.
Making mistakes is okay, but systematically, and without trying to make this better, pronouncing "aĉeti" as "aŝeti" is just wrong.
robinast (显示个人资料) 2009年12月24日下午7:39:47
Frankouche:And the third solution - to learn to pronounce these words as they should sound in Esperanto - is unacceptable? Why actually? Too difficult?
Why spending time to learn some words twice : in esperanto and in the foreign language from which it directly comes (if you want to learn it) ?
...
So, for me, 2 acceptable solutions :
- change completely the word
- let some pronunciations as allophones, ex : aĉeti = aŝeti
Well, both 'acxeti' and 'asxeti' are bit difficult for me because both the 'cx' and 'sx' are strangers in Estonian. The closest sound would be long 's'. So, why not accept 'aseti' or 'asseti' for 'acxeti' as well if 'asxeti' is OK? And the stress in Estonian words are on the first syllable. Maybe accept this as well?
You don't like to learn words twice. But someone, who does not know French (like me) and wants to understand your Esperanto with this French accent, would just need to learn some words twice - in an Esperanto and in your accent. It's at least a bit egoistic, isn't it? Especially if to take into account that you even do not dare to learn these words properly in Esperanto once.
Roberto12 (显示个人资料) 2009年12月24日下午7:47:29
I've had an idea, uloj. Let's force the Akademio to introduce a new root for sci, say "nol" (from "know"). And let's replace the subject pronouns with verb endings, partly because Englishmen are always pronouncing mi as "maj", etc. A good neutral pronoun/ending for the first-person singular could be "ob". In this new system, mi scias would become "nolob".
Hmm, actually, that looks like Volapük! Maybe we should stop clamouring for reform and stick with the Esperanto that's been established and known for over 100 years.
Feliĉan Kristnaskon
Rogir (显示个人资料) 2009年12月24日下午8:51:55
Regarding C, it's the most out-of-place letter in the whole language. I would either have left it out, used it for CX, or kept it and used X as well for ks.The c makes just as much sense as ĉ. They are both combined consonants, but out of two consonants that are close to each other in the mouth. K and s are not. And just because English has ch as a regular sound does not mean it is not a combined consonant.