Съобщения: 35
Език: English
ceigered (Покажи профила) 11 януари 2010, 09:10:22
niko-tina:Depends what dialect - for example, Australian English, and most British dialects have the last 't' in a word where it follows a vowel "deleted" and then replaced with a glottal stop, e.g. "ba' (bat)" (almost universal as a variant of syllable coda t in English dialects, even US English (but rare I think)). This is because, in Standard English (the correct form of English for most large areas, e.g. UK, US, AU, SA, NZ), when a voiceless stop or plosive (t, k, p, ch) comes after a vowel, it has a glottal stop put in front of it.
Any more English words that have that?
Examples, using Australian English vowels (ʔ = glottal stop):
stop - /stɔʔp/
quirk - /kwɜ:ʔk
help - /helʔp/, /hełʔp/ (dark L sounds like a vowel)
watch - /wɔʔtʃ/
It's not recorded in the orthography of English, so it's as if it doesn't exist (but it does, probably causing English speakers to not realise it in their accent when speaking another language)
darkweasel (Покажи профила) 11 януари 2010, 13:56:41
Vilinilo (Покажи профила) 11 януари 2010, 14:12:32
darkweasel:The hardest Esperanto word that people actually use is not "scii", it's not "aero", it's not "postscio". It's "Finnlando". A completely unpronouncable compound (Fin-nlan-do). I will never understand why people do use "Finnlando", but it's still gotten into nobody's mind to say "Aŭstrlando", which is just as difficult to pronounce.That's true. But fortunately there are lots of alternativas: Finnio, Finnujo, Suomio (my personal favorite) and Suomujo.
Other "neprononceblaj" words, in my opinion are:
*matĉo (fortunately one can say simply maĉo)
*budĝeto (one can use the much simpler buĝeto instead)
*paĉjo (I can't pronounce it so that it won't sound like paĉo)
darkweasel (Покажи профила) 11 януари 2010, 15:48:12
Vilinilo:I can actually pronounce those, although it is difficult for the first two. With "paĉjo" I don't have any problems.
Other "neprononceblaj" words, in my opinion are:
*matĉo (fortunately one can say simply maĉo)
*budĝeto (one can use the much simpler buĝeto instead)
*paĉjo (I can't pronounce it so that it won't sound like paĉo)
If one actually wanted to make a compound of FINN/ and LAND/, then one should use "Finnolando". Pronouncing this is difficult but just as possible as "Finnujo" (please not Finnio).
Also, I'm not sure if the inofficial "Suomio" isn't actually land-based, that is, suomio-suomiano. At least that's what PMEG says.
Alia ekzemplo estas la lando Finnlando. En la tuta mondo ĝi estas konata sub diversaj variantoj de tiu nomo. Nur en Finnlando mem kaj en kelkaj najbaraj landoj ĝi havas alian nomon. Tiu nomo donis la alternativon *Suomio*, kiu estas tute maltaŭga en internacia lingvo.As Bertil is an uj-ist, I'm sure he would have given the corresponding uj-form too if this inofficial root were SUOM/ (and people-based), and not SUOMI/ (land-based).
Roberto12 (Покажи профила) 11 януари 2010, 16:56:33
Polaris:The fact that in the word aero, the E gets the "punch" (natural accent) means all you have to do is be careful not to slide the 'la' into the first 'a' in aero. Don't make it a diphthong and you should be fine.So, pause between the a's and keep the ae separate. Sounds like a plan.
Regarding the various other words mentioned in this thread, I'm thinking they should either be changed or the comfortable/achievable alternatives officially tolerated.
ceigered (Покажи профила) 11 януари 2010, 16:58:27
!/fin:'lando/
Easy: labio-dental voiceless fricative into /i/, geminated /n/, and "lando" at the end - if you can say /finn-/ then /finnlando/ is easy, especially since /n/ and /l/ are pretty much vocalic consonants anyway. If you can't geminate consonants, listen to some Swedish, Finnish, Italian, the Japanese word Konnichiwa, or say "The trash can needs to be placed down by the kurb".
Or, for a gemination-nightmare: Verkkokakkonen
(try saying it first, then try saying it as "verkko-kakkonen" - the term literally means Network 2 in Finnish.)
Also, Suomilando makes more sense than Suomio IMHO, as Suomi refers to both the country and language. Dunno who I'm disagreeing/agreeing with there, just thought like adding my 5¢ worth.
darkweasel (Покажи профила) 11 януари 2010, 17:03:59
ceigered (Покажи профила) 11 януари 2010, 17:25:42
darkweasel:"Verkkokakkonen" is easier than "Finnlando" because in "Verkkokakkonen", the double K are always followed by a vowel, and not a consonant. Same in "konnichiwa".But at least it's a vocalic consonant. Your tongue doesn't even have to move, all it has to do is change shape to let air pass through the sides and stop the nasalisation, easier than sc where the tongue has to do some precise movements.
(But yes, my examples were quite bad
- how about this: say "Finnland" as you would in German, but just hover on that n and drag him out as if you've lost your train of though midway through the word. Then add "oh" (huch) at the end. Then readjust the pronunciation in small chunks to get rid of the Germanic stress pattern) 
dimichxp (Покажи профила) 12 януари 2010, 03:30:34
darkweasel (Покажи профила) 13 януари 2010, 06:38:55
ceigered:Yes, but in Esperanto, vocalic consonants aren't supposed to exist. That's why nobody uses for example "Aŭstrlando" - it would vocalize R, which is disallowed according to PMEG:
But at least it's a vocalic consonant.
Winchester → vinĉester (Angla urbonomo). La “W” (= Ŭ) fariĝas V, ĉar Esperante Ŭ ne povas aperi vortkomence. La malklara “E” fariĝas E. La fina “ER”, kiu elparoliĝas kiel vokaleca R, fariĝas ER, ĉar Esperante R ne povas esti vokalo.
I guess that this is valid for L, too.