Sporočila: 45
Jezik: English
dimichxp (Prikaži profil) 14. januar 2010 14:29:35
Rogir:You are wrong. In Esperanto you can never use -a if there is no subject in the sentence. Never.Citation needed (c). Why do you think so? Did you read that in fundamento? Or is it true because you said "never" two times? Please try to explain me why it is true. I'm ready to learn.
Rogir (Prikaži profil) 14. januar 2010 15:58:16
Oni uzas E-vorton anstataŭ A-vorto ankaŭ kiam ne ekzistas subjekto.An adverb is used instead of an adjective if there is no subject.
Besides, such use never appears in official papers and certainly not in the Fundamento.
If in Esperanto you would be allowed to leave the subject away, how would a listener know which subject you left away? Since verb forms are not conjugated for person or number, this could lead to great confusion.
Now since there is no 'implied subject' (because if there was, it would have to be written out), there is nothing for an adjective to refer to. Because, at least in Esperanto, adjectives refer to nouns, and adverbs refer to adjectives, verbs of phrases.
dimichxp (Prikaži profil) 14. januar 2010 16:27:34
Rogir:From PMEG:There is subject, but it is implied. It's not forbidden.Oni uzas E-vorton anstataŭ A-vorto ankaŭ kiam ne ekzistas subjekto.An adverb is used instead of an adjective if there is no subject.
By the way, on the exact page there is phrase "Se la subjekto estas subkomprenata O-vorto aŭ O-vorteca vorto, oni kompreneble uzu A-vortan formon" and example with sub-phrase and jussive mood.
Besides, such use never appears in official papers and certainly not in the Fundamento.Could lead, but will not definitely lead. Look, that's matter of style. Esperanto is flexible enough and allows to drop anything that is obvious from context or implied (task to the reader: count how many such reductions you use in everyday language practice). Usually no one needs to drop the subject (because of confusion), but no one should say it's not allowed. The simplest example is jussive mood - vi (subject) is often implied because it's understandable from context.
If in Esperanto you would be allowed to leave the subject away, how would a listener know which subject you left away? Since verb forms are not conjugated for person or number, this could lead to great confusion.
Saying "Mi ŝatas la veteron. Estas varma" is not error, it only may be considered: to be
- bad style in learning books;
- uncommon but correct construction in common language practice, i really doubt there is a person who will understand it incorrectly;
- welcomed thing in poetry or literature.
Again, i'm surely against of such constructions in common language practice, i just used it to show some... hm... inaccuracy in Erinja's arguments.
ceigered (Prikaži profil) 14. januar 2010 17:42:33
Rogir:If in Esperanto you would be allowed to leave the subject away, how would a listener know which subject you left away? Since verb forms are not conjugated for person or number, this could lead to great confusionNot really - "Mi ludas kun leonoj. Estas dangxere" and "Mi sxatas leono. Estas dangxera" are just as ambiguous, and from what I've read before, the first example is 'correct' Esperanto, despite having the perceived absence of a subject like the second 'incorrect' sentence.
Depends what kind of phrases we're talking about too - "amas vin" means nothing (Kiu amas?), but a dude walking in a park saying "Mmm, estas bela!" would be getting his idea across fine (granted, he could just say "Mmm, bela!" but for some strange reason he didn't
) Rogir (Prikaži profil) 15. januar 2010 01:05:55
ceigered (Prikaži profil) 15. januar 2010 09:08:08
Rogir:In that case I will start omitting subjects in English too where are not necessary. Will still be understandable, right?It will, it's not right given the rules of this language, just as it's not right in Esperanto, as you've said, but it's still understandable. In fact, it's the stereotypical accent for many non-English speakers in English pop-culture (or Borat, an entire movie where we hear "Is good!" "Is sexy!" "Is (insert basic adjective or noun here)!").
So, is all good yah?
dimichxp (Prikaži profil) 15. januar 2010 09:38:52
Rogir:In that case I will start omitting subjects in English too where are not necessary. Will still be understandable, right?I don't know english well, but i guess it explicitly forbids implying the subject (at least in realis mood). Esperanto does not, so subject can be implied (but of course it makes sense only in very limited number of cases).
Rogir (Prikaži profil) 16. januar 2010 01:59:18
dimichxp (Prikaži profil) 16. januar 2010 03:55:19
Rogir:Well, Esperanto does just as much as English, for all I know.It surely does not. English has fixed word order, while esperanto's one is relatively free. Esperanto is more flexible than english in almost any way.
Roger:I challenge you to find any grammar guide explicitly talking about the omitting of the subject.Well, the sentence from PMEG is enough.
Added: I have found article in PMEG which clearly describes my point:
Bertilo:That's what i have previously said: usually no one will drop subject, since it creates confusion in most of the cases. But it's possible to drop it, when it's clear from the context. It's correct, just considered to be colloquial style.
Oni normale ne forlasas la subjekton de ĉefverbo, se la ĉefverbo mem ĉeestas en la frazo. Tio estas baza principo en Esperanto.
...
Alispecaj forlasoj de subjekto okazas nur en rapida ĉiutageca parolo, nur en ĉeffrazoj, kaj nur kiam la kunteksto plene klarigas, kiu estas la subjekto.
Rogir (Prikaži profil) 16. januar 2010 16:55:15