erinja:I think perhaps you have a different idea of Esperanto than what it is really meant for. Esperanto is not meant as a tool to teach illiterate people to read and write. It is meant for talking to people who speak a different native language than yours.

Unfortunately you did not read the line of 214 tribes in my country that we speak different dialects.

Malaysia is not a mono lingual country like Korea or Japan.

Besides you did not take the cue of moving forward with a change,and also the main aim of Esperanto is to have better communication among people but not only cross boarders.

Of these years, the concept of Esperantonists have some what misinterpretered thus the language is static.

If the need of that troblesome of the major language, what is the purpose of introducing the Eo in life.

That is why many people when i come across question me that what the heck to study a language which has never heard of where now Malaysians are comfortably speaking Chinese, English, Malay, Tamil, Kadzan, Iban etc but the intercommuication is all the time a lack deep understanding.

As i said earlier, the new century with new hope, new change comes with new hopes.

All the best for all the esperantonists if they all still maintain the same thoughts as only for the communication of outer space.

erinja:Therefore if you are an illiterate Korean you should learn to read Korean, if you are an illiterate American you should learn to read English. You should not learn Esperanto until you can read your own language.

Where would the native speakers come from ? This is also the question all the time the arqument begins.

Esperantonists show George Soros is a native speaker of Esperanto. If Esperanto can be made into the native speaker, what else cannot be made into the second language of a country ?

This may sound harsh, Paksu, but I think you are going about this all the wrong way.

The harsh ways of globalisation mean that sometimes things, such as a single vowel that appears in some amount of languages will NOT necessarily be made standardised in an International auxiliary language.

You can make a change to Esperanto, but it will be an Esperanto (an "Esperanto" language that isn't quite the same as the original) - this doesn't mean that it will not be accepted, it just means that it will be changed from what Esperanto is now. Who knows - maybe you will find that people like the Esperantido with the schwa (ẽ as you write) more than the Esperanto we speak now. Maybe ẽ Esperantido will become the new standard one day.

However, the harsh, sad reality is this - popularity ultimate decides what becomes the lingua franca of the world, especially with high-up people in the government. If there's no celebrity, politician, large government organisation or large corpus of literature, the people will not care about it.

And you have 214 tribes in your country that speak different dialects - so does Indonesia, more or less. Yet they use Indonesian as the lingua franca to all communicate with each other. To them, Indonesian is THEIR "Esperanto", their "auxiliary language". It should be similar in Malaysia (I was under the impression that it was), and in all of Asia, and in all of the world. In Australia, we have many indigenous people who have many different languages, but we all use English, or English based pidgins/creoles to communicate (however, in Australia the indigenous population is very small, with Anglo-Celts being the majority, so the indigenous cause is sometimes under-promoted).

Anyway, adding an extra phenome to Esperanto would be pointless, redundant, and get nowhere. In another language, it might work, but it's just not useful here. This is nothing about elitism or people being rich, this is about practicality. Anyone should feel free to learn Esperanto, but changing it is a dead-end because the majority will not accept it, as they think the language is fine as is. And teaching Esperanto to people who barely know their own language or how to spell it is a bad idea - it can result in people being bad at both their own language and Esperanto, or putting them together, which could kill off the original languages. Some migrants in Australia have tried similar things with English, resulting in children who can't speak English properly and can't speak their home language properly.

If you want to teach literacy to people using Esperanto to teach how to write, however, it does not matter what new letters you add. You could spell "Mi nun povas skribi mian denasklingvon" as "Mi nun powas scribi mian dẽnaskłingwon", and it wouldn't matter, as your goal in such a case would not be to teach esperanto, but to promote literacy.

So, effectively:
Do whatever the heck you want , but don't expect the majority of Esperantists to back you or for your ideas to become popular. If you want, write a website about your new spelling system or whatever you what "ẽ" for. It doesn't matter.

Also, regarding:

Chẽngdu but not as Chengdu

This doesn't matter. If in English the word is "Chengdu", then it is subject to how English speakers pronounce words. If an English person goes to China, then OF COURSE he has to pronounce it correctly when he speaks Chinese (also, this does not need a "ẽ" letter, because here, the "e" always sounds like "ẽ". Except in Taiwanese Mandarin, where it is "o").

So:
If you are worried about language sensitivities and pronouncing things properly, don't be. It's not worth the trouble, as international words have their pronunciations slaughtered non-stop.

If you want to use ẽ to transcribe certain words, feel free. People do it all the time, in Esperanto, in English, you're doing it right now but don't expect it to become standardised. It won't. That's what the International Phonetic Alphabet and national-writing systems are for.

If you want to teach illiterate people Esperanto, be careful because it might result in improper language acquisition which is bad.

Sorry if that message was all over the place and had some conflicting or contradicting opinions. I'm too tired

@ceigered
Yeah, I got tired too of my cold. Just want to thank you for mentioning the IPA. I am very grateful.

Just a little correction, >∀^
in Taiwan we don't pronounce it as "Chong'du". More precisely, we pronounce it as "Chen'du". We in Taiwan usually replace "ng" sound with just plain "n". huh~

@Erinja
So you have been to Kaosiong!? Wow! How did you like the town? Did you meet with Mr Reza or Prof. Cho?

@Paksu
Yeah, IPA is really designed just for that, to describe the proununciation of a word precisely. It does that job much better than Esperanto.

This might be a lesson of how reform initiation works in Esperanto. It's kind of sorry you have to learn it the hard way, though.

By the way, I appreciate your courage. This thread has been like you against the whole world, yet you stood firm there. Good attitude! Hope to see you use that attitude promoting Esperanto!

LyzTyphone:@Erinja
So you have been to Kaosiong!? Wow! How did you like the town? Did you meet with Mr Reza or Prof. Cho?

Yes, I met both. I stayed in Reza's house, and Abengo showed me parts of Kaohsiung. I also met Ingrid and Saburo (not sure I remember the name right?), and they showed me some places near Pingtung. I was able to meet manlajo one day, which was so nice because we have corresponded many times about lernu. I also met Klementina, and she hosted me for one night, and arranged a very nice meal for me, which she and her students cooked. In Taipei, I met David, who showed me around for a day.

I had a wonderful time, and I found Taiwanese people to be so friendly and helpful. Now, I always recommend Taiwan to my friends, as a place to visit. I think it is a great place to experience traditional Chinese culture in a clean and modern environment. Also, the food is really delicious!

Reza asked me to write something about my trip for December's Formoza Folio, so if you receive that, you can read about my trip there (in Esperanto).

ceigered:And you have 214 tribes in your country that speak different dialects - so does Indonesia, more or less. Yet they use Indonesian as the lingua franca to all communicate with each other. To them, Indonesian is THEIR "Esperanto", their "auxiliary language". It should be similar in Malaysia (I was under the impression that it was), and in all of Asia, and in all of the world. In Australia, we have many indigenous people who have many different languages, but we all use English, or English based pidgins/creoles to communicate (however, in Australia the indigenous population is very small, with Anglo-Celts being the majority, so the indigenous cause is sometimes under-promoted).

Sorry,Indonesian accepted the language under great pressure just as the Australian indigenous do. But not for Malaysians.

Malaysia is the land of many people and the mother tongue should be preserve and this is what know I know of the Esperanto is to preserve the mother tongues of many, especially the minority.

Just as the American Indians and other minority are not giving the right to use their mother tongues.

Hope you have read the memoir of former PM of Singapore Mr Lee Kuan Yew to acertain how much IQ a person should have to acquire a second language fluently.

I would like to invite you to take a look of the news portal that currently we have now with how many languages they have to present so that the ideas can be getting across.This is the major language in the Peninsula of M...

This is not only truely reflecting the short video of the late Mr Piron of about challenge in language and time and resources wasted in the translation.

Just wonder you would give the right back to the indegious people and do away with English as the formal langauge in Australia?Afterall English (white) is from England and the history goes.....

If the word Esperi is not giving hope to the 21 century what would the use of the language as i have posted the threat of Africa earlier.

Between the European based Esperanto and Mondlango, I would rather choose Mondlango as it is more Asian and English based.

I have time and again stressing that i am not proposing it for my country but for ASEAN as a comunity.

However I find the argument here are mostly weak and not able to convience me.

Here goes either one is:
1. a language teacher
2. a linguist
3. a social linguist
4. a social activitist to protect the mother tongue and seeking equality.

A teacher teaches, a linguist knows the inside out of the language, a socio lingusit knows how the language is applied in the society and a social activist of NO 4 knows all of the 3 above.

LyzTyphone:By the way, I appreciate your courage. This thread has been like you against the whole world, yet you stood firm there. Good attitude! Hope to see you use that attitude promoting Esperanto!

Please do not take me wrong, i am not against the world neither am i against Esperanto, as a Chinese, you should have known how China took the brave act in 1957 changed into hanyu pinyin.

This change would enable not only Chinese themselves to esily access to the romanised ABC but also for the foreigners to learn Chinese.

I would not learn Chinese language if there is no hanyu pinyin.

From the posts here, you should have realised a certain section of Esperantonists are still in the nutshell thinking the Eo is untouchable and some are giving all the green light to do whatever it is. If there is no recognised body to challenge the existing unfairness of the world, like in Taiwan, would the government give back the language to the 9 tribals ?

If have to keep changing and inventing new language,it would be a silly act to invest time and money to know a language of limited usage.

You are an Asian with multilingual, you would feel better from those afar.Just as I don't feel that much of the Europeans in their fight for use of the Euro money.

paksu:Just wonder you would give the right back to the indegious people and do away with English as the formal langauge in Australia?Afterall English (white) is from England and the history goes.....

That is a good example you have. Australian aboriginal languages are being promoted at the moment (such as in my regional city, Adelaide, the Kaurna language is being used in more official signage etc (e.g the city is called "Adelaide" and "Tarndanya", with the middle square in the city being called Tarndanyannga ("cxe adelajdo/at adelaide")). Of course, it is not so smooth, and while some idigenous people don't even speak English, English is required for the largest part of society. But it is a good lingua-franca for them, even if it is not native to the indigeonous people, because it is unrelated to their languages (therefore does not favour any of them) and allows them to talk to the rest of Australians, who come from Britain, Italy, Germany, France, China, Greece, Korea, Vietnam, Malaysia, and many other countries. If we favour minority languages too much, we end up with the same problems as South Africa or the European union.

But, regarding the aboriginal languages, I have to say that I think the outlook is bleak for them looking at how lame the government's attempts to promote their languages are. Hopefully though, at the least, some of their languages will further come into English and make Australian English more distinct.

I think though that a major problem here in this forum is that we come from different viewpoints - I come from a country that is historically (after 1800's) monolingual, but is now drifiting towards multilinguism (e.g. Italian migrants will speak Italian at home sometimes, the Chinese might not even speak English, African migrants might have problems speaking English), where as you come from the opposite, a multilingual country that is probably becoming monolingual, correct?

Either way, despite everyones strong opinions, mine included, we might all be wrong, or none of us might be more correct than the other. But Esperanto is an established language with enough speakers to fill up a small country like Lithuania or Luxembourg. Just as one couldn't change Lithuania or Luxembourgish without creating a child language or new dialect, the same applies to Esperanto. That said, it is OK to speak a new dialect of Esperanto - as you say Mondlango is similar but is more Asian, but a learned speaker of Esperanto would still be able to understand Mondlango, so it is all good in the end.

Just, one day we will need an International Auxiliary language auxiliary language for all these damn International Auxiliary languages!

(also, anyone noticed that no matter what we do, IAL's always end up being Latin based? At this rate in the future we'll all be speaking some super simplified italic dialect. Our spaceships will probably have "SPQR" on the sides! )

@ Lyz:
Cheers mate, sorry about that! I don't know how Taiwanese Mandarin works, let alone how enough of PRC Chinese works haha)

@Paksu: as you can no doubt tell I'm a bit confused myself about how this could all work out. Sorry about that, maybe if I wasn't distracted by my loud and naughty siblings I might be able to converse better with you

I understand that in malay you have different sounds and you want to preserve them, but so do the portuguese. for example, the district I live in, Setúbal, would be written "Setubal", I guess. and I have no problem with that, and it doesn't turn people away from the language. I'm probably going to say it like I always said, with the schwa, but if a foreigner says it following Esperanto's phonetics it'll be easy to know which city he's referring to. it's a compromise we have to make.

and that symbol might cause confusion with my people. we use the tilde in the a (ã) and the o (õ) to nasalate the vowel. we also have other sounds not present in Esperanto, sounds which are used by millions of people speaking galician-portuguese and the other iberian languages. for example, the lh/ll and the nh/ñ. foreigners have much difficulty saying these sounds, but that doesn't mean we should add them to esperanto unless it naturally needs it.

and this isn't just in my language. even non-native english speakers struggle with the "th" sound. they don't mind. they say "Thomas" and we say "Tomás" with a T at the start.

the schwa is not needed in Esperanto. we have these basic vowels, and you can pretty much pronounce anything, even if "Esperantized". we have the IPA for the correct pronounciations. other than that, we use the ones that "our language" has, like it has happened for thousands of years.

and it doesn't really matter that there are 216 tribes in your country, you'd be introducing a letter that would only be useful transcribing words from other languages, and if you'd change the words themselves then it gets even more complex. and it's a diacritic, which might create some stressing confusion in syllables.

again, it's about compromise. some of my native sounds are lost, but it doesn't bother me at all. it's actually a lot simpler without all the weird sounds we've invented over the years. Esperanto isn't about preserving the mother tongues of anyone, not mine, not yours, not Erinja's. it's about creating an easy-to-learn-and-use auxiliary language. that's my view on it.

I said I was out of this but...

[Irrelevent]
OK, but I kind of hate this Pinyin system
[/Irrelevent]

You seem to misunderstand what we meant over there about the "untouchability". Fundament is the untouchable core. Anything else is free to evolve.

Minority language is a concern. I like @ceigered's explanation. Just to add one point:
Usually what we should do to protect minority language is to ensure they can stand by their own. So it will help more writing literature in that language, or translate classics into that language, or talk in them to many people, etc. Situation varies and Esperanto is not always of help here.

However I find the argument here are mostly weak and not able to convience me.

... ...

If you don't agree with our cases , you can refute them. That is what debate is. If you just ignore them, I don't see the space for a productive dialog.

Also, the topic has shifted from your proposal to... I don't know, the meaning of Esperanto? How is that related?