შინაარსის ნახვა

Esperanto moves forward with a change

paksu-ისა და 22 იანვარი, 2010-ის მიერ

შეტყობინებები: 82

ენა: English

IberianWolf (მომხმარებლის პროფილი) 25 იანვარი, 2010 05:51:08

I understand that in malay you have different sounds and you want to preserve them, but so do the portuguese. for example, the district I live in, Setúbal, would be written "Setubal", I guess. and I have no problem with that, and it doesn't turn people away from the language. I'm probably going to say it like I always said, with the schwa, but if a foreigner says it following Esperanto's phonetics it'll be easy to know which city he's referring to. it's a compromise we have to make.

and that symbol might cause confusion with my people. we use the tilde in the a (ã) and the o (õ) to nasalate the vowel. we also have other sounds not present in Esperanto, sounds which are used by millions of people speaking galician-portuguese and the other iberian languages. for example, the lh/ll and the nh/ñ. foreigners have much difficulty saying these sounds, but that doesn't mean we should add them to esperanto unless it naturally needs it.

and this isn't just in my language. even non-native english speakers struggle with the "th" sound. they don't mind. they say "Thomas" and we say "Tomás" with a T at the start.

the schwa is not needed in Esperanto. we have these basic vowels, and you can pretty much pronounce anything, even if "Esperantized". we have the IPA for the correct pronounciations. other than that, we use the ones that "our language" has, like it has happened for thousands of years.

and it doesn't really matter that there are 216 tribes in your country, you'd be introducing a letter that would only be useful transcribing words from other languages, and if you'd change the words themselves then it gets even more complex. and it's a diacritic, which might create some stressing confusion in syllables.

again, it's about compromise. some of my native sounds are lost, but it doesn't bother me at all. it's actually a lot simpler without all the weird sounds we've invented over the years. Esperanto isn't about preserving the mother tongues of anyone, not mine, not yours, not Erinja's. it's about creating an easy-to-learn-and-use auxiliary language. that's my view on it.

LyzTyphone (მომხმარებლის პროფილი) 25 იანვარი, 2010 05:57:57

I said I was out of this but... malgajo.gif

[Irrelevent]
OK, but I kind of hate this Pinyin system
[/Irrelevent]

You seem to misunderstand what we meant over there about the "untouchability". Fundament is the untouchable core. Anything else is free to evolve.

Minority language is a concern. I like @ceigered's explanation. Just to add one point:
Usually what we should do to protect minority language is to ensure they can stand by their own. So it will help more writing literature in that language, or translate classics into that language, or talk in them to many people, etc. Situation varies and Esperanto is not always of help here.
However I find the argument here are mostly weak and not able to convience me.
... ...

If you don't agree with our cases , you can refute them. That is what debate is. If you just ignore them, I don't see the space for a productive dialog.

Also, the topic has shifted from your proposal to... I don't know, the meaning of Esperanto? How is that related?

LyzTyphone (მომხმარებლის პროფილი) 25 იანვარი, 2010 06:27:29

@erinja
Thank you! I've been there once when I was very young. As I couldn't remember a thing you probably know the town better than I do. I will follow your recommendation and visit there some time~

@ceigered
No problem~ There are just so many "Chinese"s out there. I have no idea about some of them, either~

ceigered (მომხმარებლის პროფილი) 25 იანვარი, 2010 07:50:01

IberianWolf:the district I live in, Setúbal, would be written "Setubal", I guess
Setubaux(l) or Setubao(l), with the "e" being the schwa, I presume would be how you pronounce it? Or is that Brazilian pronunciation?
and this isn't just in my language. even non-native english speakers struggle with the "th" sound. they don't mind. they say "Thomas" and we say "Tomás" with a T at the start.
Actually, it's pronounce Tómas in English, unless you're saying that the non-native speakers pronounce it "Thomas".
Anyway, give it a good 100-200 years and the T/D/TH distinction won't be there okulumo.gif

Vilinilo (მომხმარებლის პროფილი) 26 იანვარი, 2010 01:14:07

ceigered:Setubaux(l) or Setubao(l), with the "e" being the schwa, I presume would be how you pronounce it? Or is that Brazilian pronunciation?
I don't know the European pronunciation, since I don't speak Portuguese lango.gif But in Brazilian, we pronounce it [se.'tu.bɐw]

IberianWolf (მომხმარებლის პროფილი) 26 იანვარი, 2010 07:12:13

wow, I though Thomas used the weird th sound. well, we don't pronounce most of the th words like native speakers anyway lango.gif my father pronounces "think" as "sink" and I'm pretty sure I've heard him pronounce it like "fink", like I was kinda brought into pronouncing. we mostly say "dat" for "that" and similar words. since non-natives don't really know which words use "dh" or "th", it's just funny until we get it right.

In Portugal it's pronounced [sɨ.'tu.bəɫ], my bad! I thought the schwa was some other sound. however, I came across something really weird... the IPA transcriptions I found for Portuguese have ɐ instead of ə, but from what I have heard from sound samples, we definitely pronounce it very schwa-ish in Portugal. in fact, that's one of the things that distinguishes European from Brazilian accents.

well, anyway, my point was that in Esperanto you can't possibly pronounce most Portuguese proper names correctly, and you'd have to get a lot of new sounds into Esperanto in order to do it. that's why it's better to just make some compromises, and understand that the same way you can't say some of our words, we won't be able to say some of yours, that's it. respect ridulo.gif

EDIT: ok, I just searched a little bit and it seems that the sound I was trying to describe doesn't even have an IPA symbol. it's apparently somewhere between ɯ, ɨ and ə. that's right suckers, we're too cool for IPA!

ceigered (მომხმარებლის პროფილი) 26 იანვარი, 2010 07:29:18

IberianWolf:EDIT: ok, I just searched a little bit and it seems that the sound I was trying to describe doesn't even have an IPA symbol. it's apparently somewhere between ɯ, ɨ and ə. that's right suckers, we're too cool for IPA!
Haha! If it's not even in IPA, then there's no hope for it being standardised in Esperanto lango.gif

And cheers Vilinilo and IberianWolf, you portuguese speakers pronounce things very interestingly, it reminds me of Australian English with the dark L and reduced letter sounds (although, Australian English is more like South African + French + Portuguese + Dutch lango.gif)

@ the original topic: This discussion of substandard registers existing within Esperanto might be of interest:
Angla Vikipedio

IberianWolf (მომხმარებლის პროფილი) 26 იანვარი, 2010 08:41:01

that's funny, 'cause I had a girlfriend who grew up in South Africa, so she is natively bilingual. her English pronunciation was amazingly similar to Australian, immediately prompting crocodile and kangaroo jokes. maybe there's a correlation? lango.gif

you know, I can easily spot a portuguese or a galician speaking castillian or some other languages, there's this weird "tonality" in some vowels that gives us a noticeable accent.

or maybe it's just that it's my native language ridulo.gif

EDIT: wouldn't Esperant' fit into that category?

ceigered (მომხმარებლის პროფილი) 26 იანვარი, 2010 11:54:58

IberianWolf:EDIT: wouldn't Esperant' fit into that category?
Yes and no - Esperant' is really just Esperanto without the O, from my understanding at least. So it's ultimately poetic Esperanto, which could be considered a register, but its nothing like, say, Popido, which just simplifies everything as might a speaker on the streets of London or NYC (which I can't find any information on - it looks very interesting to me).

paksu (მომხმარებლის პროფილი) 26 იანვარი, 2010 16:39:51

IberianWolf:I understand that in malay you have different sounds and you want to preserve them, but so do the portuguese. for example, the district I live in, Setúbal, would be written "Setubal", I guess. and I have no problem with that, and it doesn't turn people away from the language. I'm probably going to say it like I always said, with the schwa, but if a foreigner says it following Esperanto's phonetics it'll be easy to know which city he's referring to. it's a compromise we have to make.
For time and again, i wonder you have read the other earliest posts that i did not talking about Malaysian language.

For your information, the Portuguese did once colonised the Malaya Peninsula in the State of Melaka.

Besides your country, Dutch was one of the other country that colonised the state and left with the sounds that we have.

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