Hi,

does this video contain flat esperanto propaganda or can you agree to the statements? Does this mean that somebody living outside a english native area will never be capable to get at the english-native-speaker-level?

For me " "700 pages of english grammar and 250 pages english pronouncation versus "in a couple of months you will speak esperanto" " sounds like some flat esperanto propaganda.

Thanks for your statements.

ĝp,

qwertz:Hi,

does this video contain flat esperanto propaganda or can you agree to the statements? Does this mean that somebody living outside a english native area will never be capable to get at the english-native-speaker-level?

For me " "700 pages of english grammar and 250 pages english pronouncation versus "in a couple of months you will speak esperanto" " sounds like some flat esperanto propaganda.

Thanks for your statements.

ĝp,

In my opinion, to get a really fair comparison, he would have had to compare PMEG with an English grammar book of comparable quality. I don't know if one exists.

Seems like an oddly misconceived video. I wouldn't necessarily call it propaganda but I can't really see what his argument actually is, besides the rather obvious fact that Esperanto is a significantly easier language for most people to learn than English. Apparently he is pleading for "Esperanto over English" (whatever that means), on that very basis. Is he suggesting that it's a better idea for language students to learn Esperanto in preference to English? If that's the argument then frankly I think he's delusional. Also his waving about of a 700 page English grammar manual is disingenuous. PMEG has approaching 700 pages, but anybody who speaks Esperanto knows you don't need to have read the whole thing to be a reasonably proficient speaker. I know dozens of people who speak English as a foreign language to a decent level who never spent a fraction of the time studying grammar manuals as he implies is necessary, and they are certainly not members of any kind of "elite".

To my mind Esperanto would be much better employed as a propaedeutic vehicle for the learning of foreign languages than touted as the solution to the world's language problems. The fina venko isn't going to happen. Why waste your time arguing for it?

qwertz:Does this mean that somebody living outside a english native area will never be capable to get at the english-native-speaker-level?

I don't believe that it is is possible to achieve native-level fluency without living in an English-speaking area for years, no. In fact, I know many ESL people who have lived in the U.S. for decades, immersing themselves in English, but are nowhere near native-level fluency, though they are fluent enough to get by in life without too much trouble, hold a job, etc. And these are smart, white-collar types too.

They are at a disadvantage at times, but if it bothers them they don't show it. It bothers me though that I was born into "the elite".

For me " "700 pages of english grammar and 250 pages english pronouncation versus "in a couple of months you will speak esperanto" " sounds like some flat esperanto propaganda.

It sounds unbelievable, but it is true nonetheless. One can reach a higher level of fluency in a few months of diligent study of Esperanto than with five years or more of diligent study of English. English is incredibly complicated and perversely illogical.

In my opinion, to get a really fair comparison, he would have had to compare PMEG with an English grammar book of comparable quality. I don't know if one exists.

I guess it depends on how you define "comparable". There is the thousand-page Chicago Manual of Style, more or less the definitive reference for written American English. It covers grammar and written English, but not pronounciation. A complete handbook of English grammar including pronounciation would probably be too long to fit in one volume. PMEG, which as far as I know is the longest Esperanto grammar book ever written, covers pronounciation fully yet is only 600-some pages.

(Note: it is not necessary to read PMEG to be fluent in Esperanto, nor is it necessary to read the CMS to be fluent in English. Those are reference books, not textbooks. Language-learning is best done by example and immersion anyway.)

tommjames: The fina venko isn't going to happen. Why waste your time arguing for it?

fina venko?

qwertz:

tommjames: The fina venko isn't going to happen. Why waste your time arguing for it?

fina venko?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Finvenkismo

tommjames:

qwertz:

tommjames: The fina venko isn't going to happen. Why waste your time arguing for it?

fina venko?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Finvenkismo

Okay, I see.

trojo:I don't believe that it is is possible to achieve native-level fluency without living in an English-speaking area for years, no. In fact, I know many ESL people who have lived in the U.S. for decades, immersing themselves in English, but are nowhere near native-level fluency, though they are fluent enough to get by in life without too much trouble, hold a job, etc. And these are smart, white-collar types too.

But think about this in terms of EO too - how long does it take to become perfect in Esperanto? No doubt as long as it would to become perfect in English. But to become fluent in conversation, not necessarily grammatically correct, well, that's an entirely new discussion with many more factors involved.

Languages are generally all equal in difficulty anyway. In English you need to remember a whole lot of illogically created "set phrases", where as in EO you have to learn lots of little precise things which could change the meaning of a sentence if something was a tiny bit wrong. In that respect, the difficulty-gap closes considerably.

ceigered:
But think about this in terms of EO too - how long does it take to become perfect in Esperanto? No doubt as long as it would to become perfect in English.

I estimate that my current Esperanto level is about the same as - if not even better than - my English level. To achieve this, I've been studying English since 2004 (even earlier we had a few English lessons, even in kindergarten already!), Esperanto since 2008.

Note that there are others in my English class that have a much worse level than mine (they still keep forgetting the -s in the third person singular). And they've been learning English for the same time as me.

darkweasel:

ceigered:
But think about this in terms of EO too - how long does it take to become perfect in Esperanto? No doubt as long as it would to become perfect in English.

I estimate that my current Esperanto level is about the same as - if not even better than - my English level. To achieve this, I've been studying English since 2004 (even earlier we had a few English lessons, even in kindergarten already!), Esperanto since 2008.

Note that there are others in my English class that have a much worse level than mine (they still keep forgetting the -s in the third person singular). And they've been learning English for the same time as me.

But how fluent are you? Could you use Esperanto to do more things than you can German (or your native language)? It's a bit like current arguments for and against learning Spanish - sure, it's very easy in the early stages. But then come the more complex tenses, where suddenly the similarities to English and the Germanic languages fall apart and it becomes a lot more complicated. In the same light, Esperanto has many unique traits in terms of difficulty due to the fact that it is often a lot more logical - that logical structure though can be a double edged sword when it comes to things that other languages often tackle by using idioms, or extra words, which EO tends to avoid.

Anyway, I wouldn't put it black and white.