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Eliras/Iras el; eniras/iras en

de thirddaykid, 2010-marto-31

Mesaĝoj: 23

Lingvo: English

thirddaykid (Montri la profilon) 2010-marto-31 00:19:51

I was confused in la puzlo Esperanto the 16th lesson: al, el (ir). I don't understand the difference in saying Mi eliras, and Mi iras el. Or Mi eniras, and Mi iras en. If someone could shed some light on the subject it would be awesome!

erinja (Montri la profilon) 2010-marto-31 02:03:24

I think of "eliri" as meaning "to exit", and "iri el" is "to go out of". But sometimes "eliri" can be translated as "to go out".

Similarly, "eniri" = "to enter", "iri en" = to go in.

"alveni" = to arrive, "veni al" = to come to.

In some cases, we use a combined form to avoid ending a sentence in a preposition. One of the sentences in the course is "Mi ne rajtis eliri hieraŭ" - I was not allowed to go out yesterday. This can't be worded as "mi ne rajtis iri el hieraŭ" because that would mean "I was not allowed to go out of yesterday". It almost implies that you weren't permitted to "leave" the day! So a phrase like "I went out" would have to be "Mi eliris", not "Mi iris el" (and if you did say 'mi iris el', the listener thinks the sentence is not complete, the listener is waiting for you to say what you went out of - a house, a city, what?)

It's the same deal with the other combined forms.

Mi alvenis = I arrived. Mi venis al = I came to.... came to what? If you just want to say "arrived", "alveni" is the clear choice.

Mi eniris = I went in, I entered. Mi iris en = .... I went in.... in what? Again, "mi eniris" is the clear choice.

ceigered (Montri la profilon) 2010-marto-31 03:46:56

If it helps, think of in terms of English -
We have "to go out", but we have "outgoing" to differentiate between "he is outgoing" and "he is going out".

There's also "berserkergang" which means "goingbeserk" (gang = going, back in the day rideto.gif).

For a more "Latin" example think of "construct" - con (from Latin com/cum = with), and struct (from Latin struo - I pile up, I heap).
Essentially, what you do is you "describe" the verb with a preposition just as you might say "blua homo -> bluhomo" (blue person). "To go in-ly" = eniri okulumo.gif

Otherwise, it's like saying "I'm going into...." and forgetting to say what you're going into.

gyrus (Montri la profilon) 2010-marto-31 07:01:23

What I find really weird is how people will use the preposition twice, on the verb and after, for example, "Mi eliris el la domo".

tommjames (Montri la profilon) 2010-marto-31 12:47:23

gyrus:What I find really weird is how people will use the preposition twice, on the verb and after, for example, "Mi eliris el la domo".
I have often found that people tend to consider eliri an intransitive verb (ReVo has it that way) and that eliri la domon is somehow less preferable than the prepositional method. It's strange though because eniri is marked as [x] transitivity, meaning it could go either way. I get the sense that general custom and influence of national languages plays a part in this.

Apart from norms I don't see anything wrong with the preposition-dropped form eliri la domon, I think it's pretty clear that the intended sense is that of exiting out of the house, and not next to it, or through it or whatever. There are some results in Tekstaro for that usage too: search through all texts with \\belir[iaou]s? la \\w+oj?n\\b and you'll find a few. Though of course there are many more for the "eliri el" usage.

"Eliri el la domo" isn't really all that weird though when you consider the first "el" is just working as a modifier to create the word "exit" (eliri). You wouldn't think "exit out of the house" was weird. Perhaps the "out of" is a bit redundant but you wouldn't think there was any duplication going on. I see it the same way with "eliri el".

Miland (Montri la profilon) 2010-marto-31 17:15:07

In PMEG there are several examples of the "double" use of prepositions like en (last box but one, following the heading En + direktaj rolmontriloj) and el (first box, following the heading Movo).

gyrus (Montri la profilon) 2010-marto-31 17:16:09

That's because English has those verbs as either seperate lexical items (exit) or prepositional verbs (come out) as opposed to prepositional compounding that Esperanto does. German occasionally does a similar thing with seperable prepositional verbs such as "aufpassen auf" but these generally have quite arbitrary meanings.

ceigered (Montri la profilon) 2010-aprilo-01 09:50:29

@ Tommjames: I'm not sure what the customs are abroad, but if I saw "enter in" and "exit out of" I'd find it very weird lango.gif. It sounds like saying "I attended at the dance" instead of "I attended the dance". Adding the extra preposition sounds somewhat emphatic, as if you are trying to emphasise the action ("I ATTENEDED at the dance", as opposed to "I DRUNK MYSELF SENSELESS at the dance" - Mi sinfrenezentrinkis ĉe la balo). In Esperanto it seems the same to me (whether intended or not), but where emphasis is out of place or not needed it'd look like bad style to me.

tommjames (Montri la profilon) 2010-aprilo-01 10:04:29

ceigered:if I saw "enter in" and "exit out of" I'd find it very weird
For "enter in" I agree it is a bit strange but I was really talking about "exit out of", and I don't see it as all that strange in this instance. Google has some 2 million results for this, as well as quit a few google-suggest options in the drop down menu that appears when you do a search.

darkweasel (Montri la profilon) 2010-aprilo-01 10:09:48

Note that the English exit comes from Latin exit, which is the third-person singular present indicative of exire (where ex means "out of" and ire means "to go" - so it's formed just like the Esperanto eliri).

I don't know if English commonly uses exit out of, but in Esperanto eliri el may be a bit redundant, but it's fully correct.

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