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-iĝi- for passive?

de k1attack, 2010-majo-07

Mesaĝoj: 22

Lingvo: English

k1attack (Montri la profilon) 2010-majo-07 15:14:38

Can -iĝi- be used for passive? (e.g The mouse was eaten.)

darkweasel (Montri la profilon) 2010-majo-07 15:26:13

In many cases yes. With a transitive verb root, -iĝ often has a meaning similar to the passive, but there's a little difference: a passive verb shows more that the action was done by someone else, while an -iĝ-verb has a nuance of "the subject itself caused this".

As a result I wouldn't say la muso manĝiĝis unless it ran towards the mouth of a cat. okulumo.gif

For example: enlitiĝi = "go to bed", enlitigati = "be sent to bed".

Miland (Montri la profilon) 2010-majo-07 15:37:35

"The mouse was eaten" would be La muso estis manĝita. Iĝi means "to become", and as such it is used to indicate a change of state, for example "Her face went pale", Ŝia vizaĝo paliĝis.

darkweasel (Montri la profilon) 2010-majo-07 15:49:31

Miland:"The mouse was eaten" would be La muso estis manĝita. Iĝi means "to become", and as such it is used to indicate a change of state, for example "Her face went pale", Ŝia vizaĝo paliĝis.
That's true, but -iĝ verbs do have some other meanings according to PMEG.

Miland (Montri la profilon) 2010-majo-07 16:21:32

darkweasel:
Miland:Iĝi means "to become", and as such it is used to indicate a change of state.
That's true, but -iĝ verbs do have some other meanings according to PMEG.
The iĝi-words on that page also refer to changes of state, but associated with an action. Thus detruiĝis is effectively iĝi detruita, and the change of state here is destruction. Troviĝi is associated with the state of being found, ruliĝi with the state of rolling motion, and so on.

tommjames (Montri la profilon) 2010-majo-07 16:33:41

k1attack:Can -iĝi- be used for passive?
It really depends what you mean by "for the passive".

The iĝ suffix can be used to translate many ideas that would typically be rendered in the passive voice in other languages. For example in English we would say "I was born in November". The Esperanto equivalent would be "Mi estis naskita en Novembro", but it can also be (and frequently is) translated as "mi naskiĝis en Novembro", where "naskiĝis" means something more like "became born". This is not Esperanto's passive voice but it is close enough in its meaning to convey that idea.

The thing to remember though is that while iĝ can be used to translate certain passive ideas, it itself is not passive. The Fundamento clearly states that there is one way and one way only to render the passive voice in Esperanto, and that is with the auxiliary verb "esti" and a passive participle.

Personally I will never say something like "la muso manĝiĝis de la kato" for the passive, this kind of usage is not typical Esperanto and is grammatically questionable. But I won't complain if I see it because the intended meaning is usually clear enough.

Regarding that page on PMEG, I would say that part of the explanation given for the meaning of iĝ in a transitive verb is slightly misleading. It says that "iĝ in a transitive verb is not to do with change of state", yet it then goes on to give the example cited by Miland above, of "iĝi detruita", which as far as I'm concerned is about as much a change of state as any you're likely to see, such as "paliĝis" or "ruĝiĝis".

Miland (Montri la profilon) 2010-majo-07 18:05:07

tommjames:
The page does say that iĝi in a transitive verb is not primarily about a change of state but an act which occurs by itself, without needing an object, but that the meaning of change of state is nevertheless present! Darkweasel may have been referring to this, but I would agree that PMEG is making excessively fine distinctions here.

k1attack (Montri la profilon) 2010-majo-07 18:12:05

If the Esperanto participles are said to be rare, then how often is the passive voice used in Espeanto? And when does it have to be used?

How do I say "The mouse was eaten" rather than "The mouse was being eaten" and "The mouse has been eaten.", how?

manĝantas,
manĝintas and
manĝontas

have passive forms (by removing the "t"), but do

manĝas,
manĝis and
manĝos

have passive forms???

darkweasel (Montri la profilon) 2010-majo-07 18:49:30

k1attack:And when does it have to be used?
It never has to be used. I prefer to use active phrases with the sentence parts turned around to get the same nuance, as I believe that the passive is unnecessary in a simple language.

tommjames (Montri la profilon) 2010-majo-07 19:00:07

k1attack:How do I say "The mouse was eaten" rather than "The mouse was being eaten" and "The mouse has been eaten.", how?
The mouse was eaten = La muso estis manĝita
The mouse was being eaten = La muso estis manĝata
The mouse has been eaten = La muso estas manĝita

Of course there are other ways to show these ideas but the above is how you would do it using the participles.

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