Let's get rid of "la" - "THE" definite article in Esperanto
od uživatele k1attack ze dne 7. května 2010
Příspěvky: 65
Jazyk: English
erinja (Ukázat profil) 7. května 2010 23:40:31
k1attack:Esperanto doesn't have "an" indefinite article, but I think "the" definite article - "la" - should also be removed from Esperanto. It's needless!I think it's a terrible idea.
What do you think?
But beyond that, the use of "la" is codified in Esperanto. If you remove "la", then the language you are speaking is no longer Esperanto, it is instead a new language based on Esperanto.
RiotNrrd (Ukázat profil) 8. května 2010 1:44:59
We all which words we not, and what kind of a language we up with.
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Just in case that's TOO unintelligible, the words removed were (in order):
think, speak, wants, decided, do, like, is, do, should, decide, do, like, see, end.
arcxjo (Ukázat profil) 8. května 2010 2:00:35
And secondly - Esperanto is a living language, so, as someone mentioned before, it's pointless to introduce such reforms.
By the way, speaking of natlangs - gaelic languages for example have only definite articles, like in irish "bean" (a woman) and "an bhean" (the woman). And their speakers feel perfectly good with it.
Bennon (Ukázat profil) 8. května 2010 10:40:46
But, for the sake of argument, analyze the situation of Ancient Rome. Greek, throughout the Roman Empire, was the language of philosophy and rhetoric. It is unwise to attempt to pin this to one reason, but most people who have experience reading in both languages recognize the difficulty Latin has expressing certain concepts clearly because it lacks any form of article, as did many Romans (see especially Marcus Aurelius, but very few Roman-era philosophers wrote in Latin).
Striking a balance between precision and simplicity is important, and the definite article, although difficult to transpose through different languages, is important enough to exist with simple uses, as in Esperanto.
I think that it can be compared to the pronoun "tiu", but less emphasized.This is a very, very good comparison. All indo-european definite articles actually develop from the demonstratives (like tiu). Without "la," Esperantists would likely try to make themselves clear using "tiu," but then the grammar would end up more confusing than it was with "la."
k1attack (Ukázat profil) 8. května 2010 12:24:10
The definite article has many uses:
Refers to unique people (THE king, THE biggest, THE president, THE leader)
Talking about a specific thing or person, not another one (I saw a man. The man (not another one) was eating food.)
Names of newspapers (The Times, The Telegraph)
milupo (Ukázat profil) 8. května 2010 12:31:58
k1attack:In Esperanto, there's no indefinite article because the word "muso" automatically tells us that it's talking about ONE mouse.But, it's better to say unu muso to express that there is one mouse only.
erinja (Ukázat profil) 8. května 2010 12:36:51
milupo:Right. "Muso" is just sort of generic, and we can say "unu muso" to emphasize that there is really just one.k1attack:In Esperanto, there's no indefinite article because the word "muso" automatically tells us that it's talking about ONE mouse.But, it's better to say unu muso to express that there is one mouse only.
It's akin to how in English, there are cases where we say "a mouse" and other cases where we say "one mouse".
Interesting to note that although Latin lacked a definite or indefinite article, every single language that sprung from Latin had articles.
Also interesting to note that Zamenhof's native languages, Polish and Russian, lacked an article. He was extremely familiar with what you could do without an article, yet he chose to include it. Obviously he saw the utility of it.
Zamenhof spent about 10 years testing various incarnations of his language. Suffice it to say, his inclusion of "la" is well thought out.
andogigi (Ukázat profil) 8. května 2010 15:12:58
k1attack:There'll be no confusion with removing articles from a language unless the singulars and plurals are the same.I agree with you that it would not cause great confusion. I also have many Japanese and Chinese friends who have problems with definite vs. indefinite articles in English. (Neither of those languages use them) I do understand the argument for making the language easier.
Still, there is a very distinct advantage in differentiating between "I saw a mouse" and "I saw the mouse". While the lack of these articles might not cause confusion, I feel the inclusion of them allows greater clarity. And clarity in communication is the goal of Esperanto, cxu ne?
glavkos (Ukázat profil) 8. května 2010 16:19:19
k1attack:Esperanto doesn't have "an" indefinite article, but I think "the" definite article - "la" - should also be removed from Esperanto. It's needless!Why not to remove all the parts of speech and just stay silent ?
What do you think?
) This sound great too.. 
Huaskar (Ukázat profil) 8. května 2010 16:22:27
milupo:?????k1attack:In Esperanto, there's no indefinite article because the word "muso" automatically tells us that it's talking about ONE mouse.But, it's better to say unu muso to express that there is one mouse only.
I've read that "unu moso" means not just one mouse but rather: "one special mouse, or one mouse which I will not mention here, but which I well know, or which is well known. So it's Rather like german "eine gewisse Maus". It's not stressing that there is a mouse, in contrast to the lack of mouses, but instead that I will not mention the name of the mouse, or not pointing at this entity(that mouse over there)
At least I read this...
Bonvolu korrect me if thats wrong....