darkweasel:However, you can't remove it from Esperanto as Esperanto is a living language where you can't reform anything, especially not such basic parts.

Yeah

darkweasel:Personally I think that a perfect IAL indeed wouldn't have articles.

I'm not so sure about this. We don't have articles in Lithuanian, but we use pronouns like "this", "that" or "some", "any", etc way more often. I believe in many cases using an article is a more concise way to express the idea of specific versus abstract than cluttering sentences with pronouns.

ceigered:"People like you" and "Who do you think you are" came off very anti-egalitarian and as if you were trying to demonise me for some reason, maybe I misunderstood you

Is "people like you" really offending? I wanted to say in this context: People, who are still learning the language and who are no experts for Esperanto.
"Who do you think you are", I really wanted to know that. You could have been asking me that, too. I would have answered: I think that I am also still learning the language and that I'm absolutely no expert, but instead of thinking how to change the language I'm trying to find out how the language works.

I apologise Horsto - I thought you were attacking me, the phrase "who do you think you are" is the kind of thing a movie character might say to his enemy, and "people like you" might be what the protagonist might say to the antagonist's army of followers

I'm the same as you, only I prefer to be as egalitarian as possible - because it's not just Esperanto I'm trying to understand but the people surrounding it too. And I don't want people to get offended over simple things like people telling them not to change Esperanto, I want them rather to understand the rational and avoid going through it the hard way a bit like myself earlier () and k1attack.

In the end though it appears I might be taking some offence by myself for no real good reason so sorry about that.

Vilius:

darkweasel:Personally I think that a perfect IAL indeed wouldn't have articles.

I'm not so sure about this. We don't have articles in Lithuanian, but we use pronouns like "this", "that" or "some", "any", etc way more often. I believe in many cases using an article is a more concise way to express the idea of specific versus abstract than cluttering sentences with pronouns.

I personally agree. Effectictively, "la", "the" etc are all based off of "this/that" pairs, and are really in effect just the same as demonstrative pronouns/articles, only without the allusion to proximity or order. So effectively in the end there's always gonna be a "the" equivalent. Maybe it's just something like "that", with this and that becomming "that here" and "that there" respectively (like in some Germanic languages).

horsto:Is "people like you" really offending?

It can be. It generally implies that you are being related to based on a stereotype rather than on your individual merits, and also draws a distinction between you and the speaker as being somehow "different" or "other". It is an exclusionary phrase.

It CAN be positive. A statement like "It's because of generous people like you that we raised so much money for the charity!" won't offend anyone. But generally it's a phrase which, without a lot of explanatory context, can be and often is subject to misinterpretation, and probably ought to be avoided.

horsto:"Who do you think you are", I really wanted to know that.

Heh. The question will nearly always be interpreted as an aggressive verbal attack. The phrase implies that the speaker thinks that the receiver thinks they (the receiver) are better/more important/smarter/etc. than they really are, and asking it is often the first step in "taking them down a notch" (i.e., showing them that they are, in fact, NOT as good as they obviously think they are).

It is likely that in other cultures, these would be interpreted more charitably. But in English (or, at least in my case, American English) these phrases will usually be interpreted negatively, and possibly even as being aggressively so.

k1attack:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reformed_Esperanto

Zamenhof was himself about to eliminate the definite article from Esperanto, but fortunately he didn't.

Rimarko. La uzado de la artikolo estas tia sama, kiel en la Germana, Franca kaj aliaj lingvoj. La personoj, por kiuj la uzado de la artikolo prezentas malfacilaĵon, povas tute ĝin ne uzi.

Is that remark fundamental? If yes than maybe it's possible to eliminate the definite article, not officially but by a nuncupative agreement between all Esperanto speakers.

Also I don't agree with this proposal, but I was never able to understand The Fundamental Paradox of Esperanto :

"Esperanto tries to change the whole world, but it is extremely closed to the changes on itself." (Even to the possible future necessary reforms by Akademio.)

http://en.lernu.net/komunikado/forumo/temo.php?t=6...

utku:"Esperanto tries to change the whole world, but it is extremely closed to the changes on itself." (Even to the possible future necessary reforms by Akademio.)

I'm glad Esperanto is closed off to reforms; I wouldn't of bothered learning the language if there was any chance of a major reform to the core structure. That’s why I never bothered with any the other constructed languages, there either still changing at heart, are too young or have to small of a following. Oh and on the subject of "la" I like it =) but that’s because I’m a native English speaker.

For OP:
There's really no point discussing this as it’s impossible to remove "la" from the language. It’s like proposing the removal of "the" from English, good luck with that one champ.

utku:

k1attack:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reformed_Esperanto

Zamenhof was himself about to eliminate the definite article from Esperanto, but fortunately he didn't.

Rimarko. La uzado de la artikolo estas tia sama, kiel en la Germana, Franca kaj aliaj lingvoj. La personoj, por kiuj la uzado de la artikolo prezentas malfacilaĵon, povas tute ĝin ne uzi.

Is that remark fundamental?

Yes. It is.

The bottom line is, Esperanto is a living language. It changes and evolves, as all living languages change and evolve. It is equally ridiculous to suggest that Esperanto drop "la", as it is to suggest that English drop "the".

It's fine to ask questions about why Zamenhof may have chosen to do something one way and not another way, and it's fine to discuss the relative merits of different ways of doing things.

But it doesn't do beginners any favors to indulge them in their suggestions for change. It only perpetuates the (false) notion that it's ok to indulge in efforts to "fix" or "reform" Esperanto, and that Esperanto speakers are receptive to these efforts.

The time to change Esperanto has loooong since past. It's a living language with its own literature, speaking community, etc. Even Ido is no longer open for changes, even though it started out as a "reformed" Esperanto. Just because a language started with one person does NOT mean that it is free to be edited and changed, any more than French or Spanish.

And ceigered, if you think that the forum was rude or brusque, I thought the first replies were pretty spot-on target.

First reply:

darkweasel:Why do people keep proposing changes to a living language?

erinja:
And ceigered, if you think that the forum was rude or brusque, I thought the first replies were pretty spot-on target.

First reply:

darkweasel:Why do people keep proposing changes to a living language?

I understand the reasons why that was said, but like I said before, it doesn't really explain to the person why it's a bad decision to keep trying to change the language. Case study - myself - remember when I was trying to change things (or at least supporting them or just all in all complaining about Esperanto?), that didn't stop until after I realised that it's impossible, impractical and all in all a rather bad idea. Maybe it's a cultural difference, maybe it's just the way the internet works, but all I saw when I read that was "poor OP, got shut down without a reason". I know it's not Darkweasel's intent to do that, but I felt like adding that it's probably nicer to give k1attack a reason for the opinion and not just give an opinion.

But it doesn't do beginners any favors to indulge them in their suggestions for change. It only perpetuates the (false) notion that it's ok to indulge in efforts to "fix" or "reform" Esperanto, and that Esperanto speakers are receptive to these efforts.

Exactly, that's why you need to give them a reason before you create a reason for them to either have a rebellious attitude or to become defensive, or make them think the opinion against them is hollow because there's no actual argument visible to support it- it's all well and done now anyway. I better stop parroting before I irritate you all further.