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prava, ĝusta and vera

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Ubutumwa 51

ururimi: English

lavagulo (Kwerekana umwidondoro) 13 Rusama 2010 19:14:27

Thanks darkweasel and ceigered. I'm afraid I still don't feel comfortable with using these words as described. I still see "information" in English as having a collective meaning and using it in the plural sounds as discordant as a musician hitting a wrong note. Maybe I can get around it by using them thus:

Ĉu vi povus doni al mi iom da informo? = Could you give me a little information?
Li donis al mi valoran pecon da informo. = He gave me a valuable piece of information.
Ĉu vi havas iujn informojn pri la afero? = Do you have any information about the matter?
Mi aŭskultis la vesperan novaĵon en la radio. = I listened to the evening news on the radio.
Ni spektis la novaĵojn sur la televidilo en la salono. = We watched the news on the TV in the lounge.

Sorry if I'm getting off the topic of this thread. Maybe I can redeem myself by saying:

Vi estas prava, ke la informo estis malĝusta. = You are right that the information was wrong.
La knabo estis malprava kiam li batis sian fratinon. = The boy was wrong when he hit his sister.
ridulo.gif

tommjames (Kwerekana umwidondoro) 13 Rusama 2010 19:40:20

lavagulo:I still see "information" in English as having a collective meaning and using it in the plural sounds as discordant as a musician hitting a wrong note.
My suggestion would be to try to get used to it in preference to "working around" it. Different languages have different norms in respect of collective/discrete nouns and IMO it's better just to adapt to the way things are done in the language you're learning. It might feel wierd at first, but you'll get used to it at some point.

erinja (Kwerekana umwidondoro) 13 Rusama 2010 19:51:04

lavagulo:
La knabo estis malprava kiam li batis sian fratinon. = The boy was wrong when he hit his sister.
ridulo.gif
This one is wrong.

Remember that "prava" means having the wrong opinion. The boy acted wrongly when he hit his sister, but it is wrong as in bad, not wrong as in having the wrong opinion. You could say "La knabo estis malprava kiam li diris ke estas bone bati sian fratinon" (The boy was wrong when he said that it's a good idea to hit your sister).

(You could, however, say that the boy was "maljusta" when he hit his sister - not respecting the rights of other people, not virtuous)

ceigered (Kwerekana umwidondoro) 13 Rusama 2010 23:19:29

Well, this might be unhelpful, but maybe, when wondering whether your information is a single piece of information or qualifies as a whole collection of information, maybe think about the source of it.

E.g.,
- If the information is made of only one source (such as a quote, recommendation, statistic, recount, narrative, page from a book, or a whole book), then you've got an "informo".

- If the information is made from multiple sources (such as several quotes and a couple of statistics, various data values, summaries from several books, or just several books), then you've probably got "informoj".

If you look at the verb version of "informo" (informi) then you'll probably see that the definition of informo can be like "abstract object that informs or holds facts", rather than just "collection of facts or processed data".

I'd go further but I don't know how to use informi in a sentence and I'm hesitant to complicate it further incase I've gotten stuff wrong. (Does informi use "al"?)

lavagulo (Kwerekana umwidondoro) 14 Rusama 2010 11:39:12

Thanks, ceigered, for the help. I understand what you are saying. It's just that in English "informations" would be incorrect and my instinct rebels against its usage.

I also understand that Esperanto is not English and that there are grammatical differences. I need to handle this as tommjames said, i.e., just adapt to the way things are done in the language you're learning, even though it might feel weird at first.

In English you would say that the fish in the pond are hungry. The plural form of fish is fish. In Esperanto you would have to say that 'La fiŝoj en la lageto estas malsataj (aŭ malsatas).'

And I think that informi is transitive.
informi, -- to inform, to make known.
informiĝi, -- to find out, to get information.
Ĉu vi informos mian edzinon ke mi malfruos (estos malfrua)?

horsto (Kwerekana umwidondoro) 14 Rusama 2010 11:54:25

ceigered:(Does informi use "al"?)
No, informi iun pri io, kompreneble.

ceigered (Kwerekana umwidondoro) 14 Rusama 2010 13:20:01

lavagulo:Thanks, ceigered, for the help. I understand what you are saying. It's just that in English "informations" would be incorrect and my instinct rebels against its usage.

I also understand that Esperanto is not English and that there are grammatical differences. I need to handle this as tommjames said, i.e., just adapt to the way things are done in the language you're learning, even though it might feel weird at first.
Ah sorry, I misunderstood you ridulo.gif
For adapting, I guess just be a bit silly and have fun with it lango.gif ("THE FISHIES STOLE MY INFORMATIONS!"). But you look like you've got a great handle of it anyway so I wouldn't worry rideto.gif

horsto:No, informi iun pri io, kompreneble.
lavagulo:And I think that informi is transitive
Dankon ridulo.gif Still a very hard aspect, guessing transitivity.

tommjames (Kwerekana umwidondoro) 14 Rusama 2010 13:37:02

I wouldn't say informi al is wrong and I see this usage appear from time to time. Reta Vortaro indicates it can indeed be used with "al" and I guess that's why they mark it as ambitransitive.

Google has about 10,000 results for it, and there are some hits in Tekstaro too.

darkweasel (Kwerekana umwidondoro) 14 Rusama 2010 13:45:25

ceigered:Still a very hard aspect, guessing transitivity.
Not at all. All you need to know is the meaning of a verb. If you know its meaning, then you will never have problems about transitivity. If the sense of a verb permits the accusative, you're allowed to use it, it really is that simple (see also Fundamenta Ekzercaro §29).

I agree with tommjames that informi al is probably correct although I've never seen it yet.

Don't see transitivity as an arbitrary category that a word is put into. Dictionaries mark transitivity only because some words in national languages have multiple meanings. If you learn vocabulary by Esperanto definitions and not by English translations, there really is no need to memorize transitivity since the correct way to use the word will be immediately clear to you.

(Didn't we already discuss this in the thread about plaĉi and its transitivity?)

horsto (Kwerekana umwidondoro) 14 Rusama 2010 13:52:28

ceigered:
Still a very hard aspect, guessing transitivity.
Not really, in most cases it's obvious. I'll show you. If you write I inform - Mi informas you certainly have the feeling, that there is something missing, that means that the verb informi needs an object to build a meaningful sentence. Therefore informi of course is a transitive verb.
In cases were it is not so obvious you have to look into a dictionary, f.e. ReVo.
tommjames:
I wouldn't say informi al is wrong and I see this usage appear from time to time. Reta Vortaro indicates it can indeed be used with "al" and I guess that's why they mark it as ambitransitive.
Interesting, in my dictionary which is still more reliable than ReVo the word is marked as transitive.
I of course rimarked that some transitive verbs are sometimes used in this way, but I'm wondering why.

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