pastorant:Actually, Christians SHOULD celebrate Passover (as do we), as that being the only holiday commanded by God, and with Jesus being the fulfillment of it.

I guess that depends on who you ask; I don't personally believe that Jesus fulfilled anything at all, and I have doubts that he even existed as a single person (rather than a literary amalgamation of multiple people).

But back to the actual topic, if you are a person who believes in the Jewish Bible, there are tons of holidays commanded by G-d. I guess the difference is that (religious) Jews would tell you that those holidays are only binding on Jews (and non-religious Jews would probably tell you they're not binding on anyone!) I don't really know what Christians say about those holidays, I guess they are mostly ignored. Interestingly, I grew up Christian, yet I still don't really understand how Christianity chooses which parts of the Tanach to follow and which to basically disregard.

I guess that depends on who you ask; I don't personally believe that Jesus fulfilled anything at all, and I have doubts that he even existed as a single person (rather than a literary amalgamation of multiple people).

Jesus was a historical person, mentioned not only by his followers and disciples, but by the jewish historian Flavio Josefo, who was not a sympathizer of the Christians but of the zealots.

But back to the actual topic, if you are a person who believes in the Jewish Bible, there are tons of holidays commanded by G-d. I guess the difference is that (religious) Jews would tell you that those holidays are only binding on Jews (and non-religious Jews would probably tell you they're not binding on anyone!) I don't really know what Christians say about those holidays, I guess they are mostly ignored. Interestingly, I grew up Christian, yet I still don't really understand how Christianity chooses which parts of the Tanach to follow and which to basically disregard.

The answer of Jesus to your question is this:

“Then He spoke a parable to them: No one puts a piece from a new garment on an old one; otherwise the new makes a tear, and also the piece that was taken out of the new does not match the old. And no one puts new wine into old wineskins; or else the new wine will burst the wineskins and be spilled, and the wineskins will be ruined. But new wine must be put into new wineskins, and both are preserved. And no one, having drunk old wine, immediately desires new; for he says, 'The old is better.” (Luke 5:36-39)

To decide which of them is better is up to you…

Mendacapote:
The answer of Jesus to your question is this:

“Then He spoke a parable to them: No one puts a piece from a new garment on an old one; otherwise the new makes a tear, and also the piece that was taken out of the new does not match the old. And no one puts new wine into old wineskins; or else the new wine will burst the wineskins and be spilled, and the wineskins will be ruined. But new wine must be put into new wineskins, and both are preserved. And no one, having drunk old wine, immediately desires new; for he says, 'The old is better.” (Luke 5:36-39)

To decide which of them is better is up to you…

That's really not what that parable is saying, but it will work. Because Christ was the prophecied Messiah, he was the perfect sacrifice. Everything in his life and death is symbolically laid out in Passover. (The last supper was a passover meal). Christ wore tzitzit (tassles) and a prayer shawl. He was FULLY jewish. But his death got rid of the "law". All 261 laws of the O.T. (Not the moral law, however). He is our sabbath rest.
And because he nailed the O.T. law to the cross, celebrating the Jewish holidays are optional. There is no day above any other day (including Sunday). But instead of celebrating a man made holiday, why not celebrate the holidays that God himself instituted? While I don't spam, all of my writings are at http://www.pastorant.com
(Some in Esperanto!)

Mendacapote:
Jesus was a historical person, mentioned not only by his followers and disciples, but by the jewish historian Flavio Josefo, who was not a sympathizer of the Christians but of the zealots.

His name was a very common one at the time. If I have many writings talking about "John from Damascus" (the very small town where I grew up), even though Damascus is a small place, there will be lots of Johns there, just because it's such a common name. I don't really see mention of someone's (very common) name and mentions of their parents' (also very common) names to be proof that a single person did all of these things. In any case, that region of the world had a lot of false messiahs at that point in history, and I don't doubt that the actions of several of these false messiahs could have been attributed to a single person.

pastorant:
Because Christ was the prophecied Messiah, he was the perfect sacrifice.

Shouldn't he then have been eaten, since Jewish sacrifices are eaten? And whatever isn't eaten (certain fats etc) are burned instead, which was also not done. Not to mention that he wasn't sacrificed properly, on the altar, and his blood wasn't sprinkled on the horns of the altar in the prescribed manner.

But his death got rid of the "law". All 261 laws of the O.T.

613, actually

This issue is very simple to me, however. Assuming one believes in the Hebrew Bible (I am personally a little wishy-washy about which parts I believe and which I don't, and what I believe about them) - assuming you believe this, then any prophet who tells you to stop following some of the laws is by definition a false prophet and should be put to death. Jesus (assuming he existed) said not to bother about the laws. Not only that, but he openly mocked people who did follow them. I'm not saying he should have been put to death, but I don't really think that someone who believes in the Hebrew Bible should be following someone who says to disobey G-d's laws. According to the book of Deuteronomy:

If a prophet, or one who foretells by dreams, appears among you and announces to you a miraculous sign or wonder, and if the sign or wonder of which he has spoken takes place, and he says, 'Let us follow other gods' (gods you have not known) 'and let us worship them,' you must not listen to the words of that prophet or dreamer. The Lord your G-d is testing you to find out whether you love him with all your heart and with all your soul. It is the Lord your G-d you must follow, and him you must revere. Keep his commands and obey him; serve him and hold fast to him. That prophet or dreamer must be put to death, because he preached rebellion against the Lord your G-d, who brought you out of Egypt and redeemed you from the land of slavery; he has tried to turn you from the way the Lord your G-d commanded you to follow. You must purge the evil from among you

Certainly Jesus is a god that was not known to the Jews before. The concept of "three gods in one" is downright blasphemous in traditional Jewish thought. And I would certainly say that his teachings were rebellion against Jewish law. Also, I find it extreme to say "no one may come to the father but through me". Effectively, he is saying that not only is he throwing out the law (thereby acting against the Torah), but if you don't follow him, you have no path to G-d. I think it contradicts all that some Christians say about a personal relationship with G-d. In fact, Jews already *had* a personal relationship with G-d, then some Christians up and declared that relationship null and void, and claimed that you had to go through their false god to reach G-d.

(Not the moral law, however).

How do we know this?

The father of my mum was born a sephardi jew… and died a couple of years ago as a convinced communist. He used to say Jesus was not the Messiah but another “communist jew” like him. My grandfather had studied the topic to the most minimal detail and never doubted the historical existence of Jesus. The jews have been saying Jesus was a fraud for 2000 years… but there are nowadays over 1.800.000.000 christians and less than 16.000.000 jews…

It seems nobody is paying attention to the jewish for the number of Christians keeps growing…

If I didn’t read it wrong you said you used to be a Christian (or at least you were raised like one). Well, now I understand your jewish enthusiasm: most converted persons believe with all their hearts and feel they were called to be warriors of their new faith… particularly against the old one!

Be a good jewish and let the Christians be; at the end YHWH himself will sort out all this mess.

I am an atheist, and to be honest I have not really read the bible, only parts here and there. But it was an interesting discussion so...

The way I have seen the "story" in the bible is that adam and eve ate the apple and god condemned all mankind to the inherited sin, live hard lives etc, but then after some time send his son (which is not really a son but a part of the trinity that is god) to prepare the people for a new era, and let him die and that way take back the inherited sin and forgive mankind, which is then repeated with the wine and bread ritual. And since things have changed, and there is a new time, there are also new guidelines, like turning the other cheek.
Is that totally wrong?

But I think I quite agree with mendecapote's grandfather, that he had political motives, did not like the society and wanted to change it and religion was a usefull tool. Perhaps otherwise, he did not say he was gods son, but a prophet, and then the people changed the story after his death to make it more glorious and grand. Remember that it was not until the negotiations with the roman emperor to make christianity the official religion of the roman empire around year 300 that the bible were properly written down and collected into one book, many parts were not included, it is likely that some were added and changed, just look at the time of holidays, cannot really be a coincidence that they coincide with those of old religions can it?

Mendacapote:The father of my mum was born a sephardi jew… and died a couple of years ago as a convinced communist. He used to say Jesus was not the Messiah but another “communist jew” like him. My grandfather had studied the topic to the most minimal detail and never doubted the historical existence of Jesus.

Different people have their own opinions. He was certainly entitled to his opinion. If someone else wants to say that they believe Jesus existed as a historical fact, they are of course free to think so.

The jews have been saying Jesus was a fraud for 2000 years… but there are nowadays over 1.800.000.000 christians and less than 16.000.000 jews…

Forcing people to convert or die also has something to do with this. I'm not saying that Christians currently do that, but it did happen in history. Also, Christianity is a religion that proselytizes - it encourages people to convert. Judaism doesn't do this. Judaism isn't meant to be a religion for all of humanity, and potential converts are actually discouraged from converting (since according to Judaism, you can be an equally good person, whether you are a Jew or not).

In any case, I don't judge the "rightness" of beliefs by the number of people who believe in them. I believe that eventually, the number of Muslims in the world will surpass the number of Christians. Does this make them "more right"? Catholicism is the largest branch of Christianity. Does that make them the "most correct"?

It seems nobody is paying attention to the jewish for the number of Christians keeps growing…

As I said, Jews are not really interested in attracting more followers. Christians spend billions of dollars every year to encourage people to convert.

most converted persons believe with all their hearts and feel they were called to be warriors of their new faith… particularly against the old one!

I don't feel particularly called to be a warrior. I don't much care what Christians believe. I just wish they would leave Judaism alone and stop trying to misinterpret Jewish texts/beliefs/holidays as a way to support Christianity. I think that Christians would not appreciate it very much if (for example) Muslims took the Christian holidays and used them to prove that Islam is the true faith. If Muslims performed Christian ceremonies, and gave each element of the ceremony a new Islamic meaning, I think Christians would find that offensive. For example, if Muslims started holding "baptism" ceremonies and saying that this ceremony symbolizes your devotion to the teachings of the final prophet - I doubt that Christians would be very happy with this. This is how I feel when Christians hold Passover seders and give the elements new meanings - "the broken matzah represents Jesus' broken body" or somesuch. I don't mind if Christians hold a seder according to Jewish tradition, with Jewish meanings, simply to learn about Jewish culture. But I find it beyond offensive when they reinterpret seder meals to give these Jewish symbols a Christian meaning.

In any case, I encourage you to go to one of the many Muslim websites that talks about how Christians misinterpret their own religious texts, and how these texts really foretell Islam. I'm not saying I agree with these websites, but perhaps they will give you an idea of how Jews feel when Christians use Jewish texts to "prove the truth of Christianity".

Be a good jewish and let the Christians be; at the end YHWH himself will sort out all this mess.

I am happy to let the Christians be. In fact, my preference is to ignore their existence and forget everything about Christianity that I ever knew. But the meddling of some (but certainly not all) Christians in Jewish beliefs/holidays really bothers me. Christianity and Judaism are completely separate religions. Christianity is not the "fulfillment" of Judaism any more than Islam is the "fulfillment" of Christianity (or any more than Spanish is the "fulfillment" of Latin) The original Christians were Jews, but there was also significant pagan influence at work, especially when early Christians were trying to make the religion more palatable to non-Jews. Many of the stories in the Christian bible are close mirrors of stories told about pagan deities. I also see influence of dualistic religions, such as Zoroastrianism. I am thinking specifically of the Christian idea of the struggle between G-d and Satan. This light versus dark and good versus evil idea is common in dualistic religions, and the Christian conception of Satan is a good example - it is completely different from the Jewish idea of Satan. I'm not saying that Christianity is strictly a dualistic religion (it isn't) but there is some influence.

You are absolutely right: Christian should completely let Judaism behind… Just like Spanish which happens to be a living language (and certainly not its fulfillment) let Latin behind.

Judaism has traces of Babylonian and Egyptian believes too; you can track them back in the Hammurabi code, The Gilgamesh fable, the existence of angels, the believe in a single God (The Aton cult of Akhenaton), etc.

I’m not at all a fanatic Christian. For me Jesus Christ was a human being, not the Son of God. But the mountain sermon, Mathews 5-8 is my moral code. I can save this three chapters and burn to ashes the whole bible.

Mendacapote:Judaism has traces of Babylonian and Egyptian believes too; you can track them back in the Hammurabi code, The Gilgamesh fable, the existence of angels, the believe in a single God (The Aton cult of Akhenaton), etc.

Yes, that's true. The flood legend is common in many older religions, the Jewish names of months are based on Babylonian words, etc. I certainly would not say that Judaism is free of influence from surrounding cultures and earlier belief systems. In addition, there's a lot of stuff in Judaism, not necessarily in the Torah itself, but in the religion as it is practiced today, that has its roots in old superstitions that come from cultures that Jews have lived in at one time or another.