The creator of all existence (physical and spiritual) doesn’t exist… but He created us in His own… ups! There are several possibilities:

God doesn’t exist… and there was no creation.
God doesn’t exist… and created us in the image of His own non existence.
God doesn’t exist… and we created Him in our own image.
God doesn’t exist… but pretended to exist, just to mock us a little bit.

OK, that too hard to understand… Let’s define existence then.

Melequíades:Mi ne studis teologion sed mi konsideras ke ne estas ĝuste paroli pri la ekzistado ("existence" oni diris) de Dio, ĉar Dio kreis ĉiujn ekzistaĵojn. En tiu kazo do Dio ne povas esti ekzistaĵo, kaj do ne ekzistas, sed estas ekster la ekzistanta realo.

Pri la egaleco, aŭ neegaleco, inter esto kaj ekzisto, riveroj da inko uziĝis; se mi bone memoras miajn gimnaziajn studojn de filozofio, laŭ unu el la t.n. "patroj de la eklezio", pro tio ke dio estas perfekta, ĝi havas ĉiun pozitivan atribuon, kaj do ankaŭ tiun de ekzisto.

En via rimarko vi verŝajne devus provi trovi konsenton pri la signifoj de "ekzisto", "ekzistanta realo" kaj kompreneble pri la fakto ke dio kreis ekzistaĵojn, fakto pri kiu evidente ne nepre ĉiuj samopinias (mi persone havas dubojn).

Dankon je via kontribuo.

* * *

On the differences or points of contact between "being" and "existing", rivers of ink have been used. If I remember correctly from my philosophy classes in high school, one of the so called "fathers of the church" said that because god is perfect, it has every positive attribute, inter which, that of existence.

In your note you might probably have to seek consent about the meaning of "existence", "existing reality", and about the fact that god created all existence, a fact about which, evidently, not everyone agrees (personally I have doubts).

Thanks for your post.

Well, since there's no sence trying to stop the argument, I might as well fan the flames.

I've contemplated Atheism for a while, and it scares me to death. Does it make you feel good knowing that life has no inherint meaning, that we're alone in a vast, empty, and pittyless universe. That all you see before you, including yourself, was made as a result of pure chance? And, to add icing on the cake, that when you die, you will cease to exist, and everything you've done, indeed, everything that Humanity has done, ends up dessolving into nothing?

If there is no God, and hencen no absolute reality, then life is meaningless, and whatever I do to myself or othersd, no matter how dispickable or wonderful, will make no difference in the end. If there is no God, than why do we even bother being nice to one another? Why should I try to good to others, feed the hungry, clothe the naked, visit the sick and imprisoned, if they're all gonna cease to exist in the end anyway? What is 70 or 80 years of a godless existance to an eternity of nonexistance?

But there is a God, and hence life has meaning.

Now if you'll exuse me, I'm late for class

tiberius:I've contemplated Atheism for a while, and it scares me to death...

To fan the flames a bit further: why should the lack of a god or gods be terrifying? On the contrary, it's empowering to know that you and the people around you are the ones responsibile for giving your lives meaning. Pride in one's accomplishments and love of one's friends, family, or indeed humanity--these things exist separately from a belief in God, I assure you. Fear is a great religious motivator, I'll admit, by who wants to live one's life in fear?

Why do we bother to be nice to one another? Your acquaintances will shun you if you're a jerk and others will punish you if you're troublesome. That hasn't changed since humans first evolved...

I consider myself a religious person - I am not an atheist. But I do see myself as a result of pure chance. I exist and that's fine. But if I didn't exist, that would be fine, too. No one would know the difference. I wouldn't be unhappy about it, because I wouldn't exist to even know about it. Everything that humanity does will eventually dissolve into nothing - people won't last forever. I wouldn't want to be among the last humans, that would be depressing. But that won't happen for a very long time, anyway. After I die, I expect that will be it for me - I don't believe in a heaven or hell. And that's fine with me, because after I'm dead, nothing will matter anymore, since I won't be around to worry about it.

Why be nice to people? First, because being nice to people feels better than treating them horribly. Also, I would prefer to live in a safe and polite society. If I treat other people kindly, then hopefully they will treat me the same, and we can all get greater enjoyment out of the limited time we have on earth. If I were sick or imprisoned or homeless, I would hope someone would help me out. We all benefit from living in a society where people help other people - you never know when you might become the person who needs help! If whatever religion you believe in told you tomorrow that from now on, it is ok to spit on every homeless person you see, would you do it? Probably not, if you're a person with a sense of decency and human dignity. I think that most people have some sense of decency that extends beyond whatever their religions tell them.

I follow religious rules because I find them meaningful and see them as a way of improving my life. And since I don't believe in an afterlife, I think we should live the best possible life while we have the chance. But each person has their own ideas of what works best for their life. I doubt that atheists are, on average, less happy than believers in some kind of deity. I know happy atheists/Christians/Jews/Muslims and also unhappy ones. Actually, referring to the sects of some religions that espouse all kinds of hellfire and brimstone - I find that belief to be frightening, and frankly I would think that an atheist (who believes in no afterlife whatsoever) would live a happier life, in that sense, than a believer in one of those religions, who must life their life in fear that one misstep will send them to an eternity of agony and suffering.

tiberius:I've contemplated Atheism for a while, and it scares me to death...

[snip]

But there is a God, and hence life has meaning.

Excuse me if I've misunderstood, but are you saying that you believe there is a god because the possibility of there being no god scares you? If so, surely you realise that's totally illogical? Wanting something to be true does not make it true.

tiberius:Well, since there's no sence trying to stop the argument,

Actually there can be, who knows?

I've contemplated Atheism for a while, and it scares me to death. [...]

Well, I am not an atheist, at least not in the meaning that I deny the presence of deities. But I am not a theist, meaning that I do not believe in that, either. I am merely not convinced -- I think my position is close to what is usually called "external world skepticism".

In a nutshell, I contemplate the possibility of doubt, clouding all that I sense and that I think. I am thrilled by the thought that perhaps I will have a revelation one day, but so far, none happened.

I am therefore floating; there is no absolute, or at least, I couldn't find any so far. And I am extremely comfortable. I follow my preference, and since I prefer efficiency, and building things, I commonly use politeness, because I have observed so far that by establishing warm relations I can achieve my goals faster, and with less friction. I like the concept of the golden rule (do unto others as you'd like others to do unto you, or something like this), so when I can I try to apply it. I am at peace with myself and I do not really feel the need for superimposed morals or anybody else's truth, or definitions of right and wrong, or good or evil, that are usually pertinent only to a well-defined geographical or chronological region, and are therefore not absolute.

All those things are interesting food for thought, though, well, maybe not every one of them. Preferences again.

If there is no God, and hencen no absolute reality, then life is meaningless

That could very well be true. On the other hand, for a real lot of people, life is miserable, or very hard at best; so if it's not a product of chance, it would reflect pretty badly on our creator's choice of plans, right?

My best wishes and cordiality.

erinja:

orthohawk:
If the person is an Orthodox Christian, you'll want to say "Kristo Leviĝis!" to which they will reply "Vere Li leviĝis!"

For an American Orthodox Christian, would they say that in English, or would they say it in Greek or Russian or another language, depending on what kind of orthodox they were?

Thanks for sharing the Orthodox Christian Pascha/Easter greeting in Esperanto. This is my first comment on a Lernu message board. I am eager to learn how to communicate with Esperantists and encourage Orthodox Christians to learn and promote Esperanto.

Belan Paskon!

Серёга:Belan Paskon!

Kaj al vi!

(Tr:&2U2).