Poruke: 29
Jezik: English
Miland (Prikaz profila) 23. svibnja 2010. 10:13:33
ceigered:So, do you have a suggested solution?Miland:..how can we better express the idea behind ĉinotutmondolingvigismo? Two ways might be kredo je la fina venko de la ĉina, or perhaps ĉina finvenkismo.I would avoid both of those latter terms - both seem to imply chinese world domination (while Esperanto's final victory would be world wide linguistic adoption, "cxina" denotes more than just the language).
ceigered (Prikaz profila) 23. svibnja 2010. 10:44:08
Miland:Didn't you see my stunning (cough) solution before hand?ceigered:So, do you have a suggested solution?Miland:..how can we better express the idea behind ĉinotutmondolingvigismo? Two ways might be kredo je la fina venko de la ĉina, or perhaps ĉina finvenkismo.I would avoid both of those latter terms - both seem to imply chinese world domination (while Esperanto's final victory would be world wide linguistic adoption, "cxina" denotes more than just the language).
Back on topic - Maybe stick in lingv- somewhere?
Tommjames:which is how we indicate a language (la angla, la franca etc). But in any case "fina venko" or "finvenkismo" is an idea specifically associated with a language movement so I wouldn't see it as a problem.The problem I imagine is the same problem you might have by saying "The English final victory" - are we talking about an anglo-celtic plan to take over the entire world like some conspiracy theorists claim or are we talking about when the English language achieves a finavenko instead of Esperanto?
I'll take back my "I'd avoid" part, don't ask what exactly was going on in my head when I said that, but I'd be careful where I'd be saying it (especially around conspiracy theorists
). I can just imagine it being taken out of context with the wrong people/conversations, since "cxina" when it addresses something can refer to the culture and politics of china. 
tommjames (Prikaz profila) 23. svibnja 2010. 11:00:54
ceigered:The problem I imagine is the same problem you might have by saying "The English final victory" -English doesn't have an equivalent idea for the fina venko, so I think it's wrong to make that comparison. There's nothing in English that makes us associate the expression "final victory" with the success of a particular language, but you cannot say the same in Esperanto with regards to the fina venko. For me a "ĉina finvenko" is sufficiently clear, it's the final victory of the Chinese language, just as the fina venko in the default sense is the final victory of the Esperanto language. And of course don't forget if you were actually going to use this expression the context would make it clear, as it usually does for just about every ambiguity you can shake a theoretical argument stick at.
Miland (Prikaz profila) 23. svibnja 2010. 11:01:48
ceigered:Maybe stick in lingv- somewhere?..OK, how about kredo je la fina venko de la ĉina lingvo? BTW I've recently acquired in paperback David Aaronovitch's Voodoo Histories: how conspiracy theories have shaped modern history, which some forumanoj might enjoy.
I'd be careful where I'd be saying it (especially around conspiracy theorists
ceigered (Prikaz profila) 23. svibnja 2010. 12:09:23
@ Tommjames - I swear I just wrote this up and sent it but I think I screwed something up. Anyway, I must admit that when I see "fina venko" I have a more political and cultural meaning in my head than just "becoming the 2nd language of every person on the planet", even with Esperanto (I can't help but imagine the tanks rolling down main streets in European cities with the EO flag on the side, with the odd comissar yelling "ELIRBLOKO! ELIRBLOKO!"
).But I still think that with things other than Esperanto, while it's easy to make the linguistic assumption in the right context, it wouldn't be hard for it to give someone the impression of a different meaning. Especially since the majority of the "Esperanta finvenko" is on the "Esperanto" part - what is the purpose of Esperanto, after all? Then compare that with the "Cxina finvenko" - what is the purpose of a nation meant to be?
There's that militaristic connotation behind it when you talk of existing nations, especially large and powerful ones (e.g. Usona finvenko - sure, here we could be talking about the Americanisation of the English speaking world, but given the recent association of Usona with "war in the middle east", one might get a different impression I sense).
EDIT: Then again, I guess it comes down to subjectivity. For someone living in Australia, for example "Cxina/Usona finvenko" might have a more imperialistic connotation given that we're right next to both, and I think to some extent many are scared poopless by the power of both (luckily we get along with both
). But if we changed it to "Kelta/Slava finvenko", there's a sort of linguistic connotation there, even though that Celts and Slavs could be thought of as ethnic groups.In the end, it could just be me hating on the term "fina venko"
erinja (Prikaz profila) 23. svibnja 2010. 16:28:46
ceigered:for example "Ĉina/Usona finvenko" might have a more imperialistic connotation given that we're right next to both,I totally get it about American power internationally. But you've made a geographical error, ceigered - Australia and the US are in no way at all right next to each other. Australia is pretty much closer to any place on the entire planet, other than the US. According to Antipodr, a website that finds your exact opposite place on the earth, Australia and the US are very close to being complete opposites.
Miland (Prikaz profila) 23. svibnja 2010. 18:18:03
erinja:According to Antipodr, a website that finds your exact opposite place on the earth, Australia and the US are very close to being complete opposites.That is an interesting website. I just put in a few American cities and all their antipodes were in the Indian ocean. A few Australian cities had their antipodes in the middle of the Atlantic. NZ appears to be antipodeal to Spain.
erinja (Prikaz profila) 23. svibnja 2010. 21:15:45
Miland:That is an interesting website. I just put in a few American cities and all their antipodes were in the Indian ocean. A few Australian cities had their antipodes in the middle of the Atlantic. NZ appears to be antipodeal to Spain.If you do the calculations for cities in the east and in the west of Australia, you'll find that Australia fits very neatly in the Atlantic ocean, between Europe and North America. You could say, therefore, that Australia is equally close (equally far?) from Europe and North America.
ceigered (Prikaz profila) 24. svibnja 2010. 08:14:08
erinja:, Australia and the US are very close to being complete opposites.That's exactly true, I've had to explain to my siblings that "if we dug through the centre of the Earth, we're more likely to end up coming out the other end in Washington DC rather than Beijing", which was funny
. Please don't misunderstand, I'm not unaware of the geography of the world - but we tend to ignore all the useless space in between us and other countries (e.g. ocean, desert, etc). It's a rather Australian thing too I think, I mean, what is now the "Northern Territory" (our "Northern Australia") used to be part of South Australia - there's absolutely no regard for the geography, rather it's mostly based on things like population . And Australia's antarctic territory is the biggest, even though we aren't the closest nation nearby the continent. 
So, basically, if you're on the pacific ocean, we regard you as being close by. Unless you're South America (we love South Americans, we just don't interact with them enough
)On the other hand, to get to Europe, you've got to go through so many countries and peoples to get there that even if it's a shorter distance, where as America, you just slip in through the back door
. Maybe being downunder all my life has made my logic go downunder.On the other hand... China is much closer than the rest of you, or at least Chinese culture is (In Malaysia and Indonesia).
EDIT: Disclaimer - I am exaggerating a LOT, just so you all know that I'm not just sencerba/freneza