글: 29
언어: English
k1attack (프로필 보기) 2010년 5월 16일 오후 8:10:36
Arpee writes on Youtube about Esperanto and whether it's successful:
"This is just one man's opinion. A "best" conlang is also an opinion since some people may find different qualities more important than others.
I am using logic while creating my languages. If a language is to be created for the world to be able to speak, then logically it should be easy for everyone to learn otherwise it can take YEARS (Esperanto) or NEVER (Lojban) to master it fully. In other words, a global auxiliary language would be like a "tool", it would be something to use to make a specific purpose easier in this case communicating with others.
Esperanto has many phonemes which are difficult for MOST people to pronounce. Sure there are Chinese, Japanese, Korean, Esperantists but have you ever heard them speak or saw their grammar?
Since it's obvious that a GLOBAL language should have a GLOBAL phoneme, vocabulary, etc. Then it's obvious that the language should be minimalistic.
If it's not minimalistic then it will be bias or difficult for someone to speak and that defeats the purpose of making a easy language for everyone to learn and communicate with.
I don't think "pua ni kau" is perfect in this regard, even diphthongs are difficult for some people but I am getting closer and closer as I study more languages and do more research."
He also writes:
"The language is has 2 million speakers but most are European and it's biggest group (school) is somewhere in Brazil! Esperanto will never catch on strongly in the eastern part of the world (plus Hawaii), because it has inflections and phonemes which are difficult for most of the world.
The reason why no other language have replaced Esperanto (yet!) is because the general public lacks an awareness of global artificial auxiliary languages. Also, other languages aren't promoted enough.
Because of the many verbal and even noun inflections and many phonemes, Esperanto is sure to fail as a global language. It will fade away with time and even if it doesn't it's only host will be Europe and maybe America and eventually it will spread into dialects because of how complex it is!
With a simple language with complete minimalism, it can not turn into dialects. You may say "Hey, what about Toki Pona?", well the vowels in Toki Pona are not minimal, they are complex.
The MINIMAL (not major) amount of vowels in a language is 3, not 5!
Like is said, most of the world doesn't not know about global languages at all so in the case that ALL global languages fail, would you rather have wasted YEARS learning Esperanto or a few days or even HOURS learning a minimal language? Which you can use as a secret language or easily teach your lazy friends or write poetry or even teach the internet, the uses of a minimal language are many!"
"This is just one man's opinion. A "best" conlang is also an opinion since some people may find different qualities more important than others.
I am using logic while creating my languages. If a language is to be created for the world to be able to speak, then logically it should be easy for everyone to learn otherwise it can take YEARS (Esperanto) or NEVER (Lojban) to master it fully. In other words, a global auxiliary language would be like a "tool", it would be something to use to make a specific purpose easier in this case communicating with others.
Esperanto has many phonemes which are difficult for MOST people to pronounce. Sure there are Chinese, Japanese, Korean, Esperantists but have you ever heard them speak or saw their grammar?
Since it's obvious that a GLOBAL language should have a GLOBAL phoneme, vocabulary, etc. Then it's obvious that the language should be minimalistic.
If it's not minimalistic then it will be bias or difficult for someone to speak and that defeats the purpose of making a easy language for everyone to learn and communicate with.
I don't think "pua ni kau" is perfect in this regard, even diphthongs are difficult for some people but I am getting closer and closer as I study more languages and do more research."
He also writes:
"The language is has 2 million speakers but most are European and it's biggest group (school) is somewhere in Brazil! Esperanto will never catch on strongly in the eastern part of the world (plus Hawaii), because it has inflections and phonemes which are difficult for most of the world.
The reason why no other language have replaced Esperanto (yet!) is because the general public lacks an awareness of global artificial auxiliary languages. Also, other languages aren't promoted enough.
Because of the many verbal and even noun inflections and many phonemes, Esperanto is sure to fail as a global language. It will fade away with time and even if it doesn't it's only host will be Europe and maybe America and eventually it will spread into dialects because of how complex it is!
With a simple language with complete minimalism, it can not turn into dialects. You may say "Hey, what about Toki Pona?", well the vowels in Toki Pona are not minimal, they are complex.
The MINIMAL (not major) amount of vowels in a language is 3, not 5!
Like is said, most of the world doesn't not know about global languages at all so in the case that ALL global languages fail, would you rather have wasted YEARS learning Esperanto or a few days or even HOURS learning a minimal language? Which you can use as a secret language or easily teach your lazy friends or write poetry or even teach the internet, the uses of a minimal language are many!"
richardhall (프로필 보기) 2010년 5월 16일 오후 10:26:11
I've neglected E-o for a while, so I'm not in the strongest position to comment. But despite my recent neglect, I preached a (short) sermon at a service held today for the British Esperanto Association which was attended by people from several nations, with all able to take part on an equal footing. There's no question in my mind that Esperanto is a successful language.
Perfect? Of course not! But good enough? Jes ja!
Perfect? Of course not! But good enough? Jes ja!
ceigered (프로필 보기) 2010년 5월 16일 오후 11:36:25
"The language is has 2 million speakers but most are European and it's biggest group (school) is somewhere in Brazil! Esperanto will never catch on strongly in the eastern part of the world (plus Hawaii), because it has inflections and phonemes which are difficult for most of the world.No offence to Arpee, but this does make me wonder how much he knows about the world outside wherever he lives. I'm pretty sure that Hawaiians speak mostly English with Hawaiian as a family language.
From Wikipedia: "According to the 2008 American Community Survey, 74.6% of Hawaii's residents over the age of five speak only English at home.[50]" And then there's Hawaiian Creole English to consider.
He also needs to consider the population density, the trends (e.g. why are so many Brazilians learning Esperanto? A possible linguistic link, or is it something more socio-economic), and there's no mention of China, Japan or Korea (about a 5th of the world's population?).
The reason why no other language have replaced Esperanto (yet!) is because the general public lacks an awareness of global artificial auxiliary languages. Also, other languages aren't promoted enough.Another fallacy - people learn language to communicate, and so it tends to come down to numbers of speakers rather than simple awareness.
Because of the many verbal and even noun inflections and many phonemes, Esperanto is sure to fail as a global language. It will fade away with time and even if it doesn't it's only host will be Europe and maybe America and eventually it will spread into dialects because of how complex it is!.... And Toki Pona surely makes a great foundation for clear communication. I have to be honest, if there was easier ways to learn Lojban, I'd support that over Esperanto. Lack of clarity in an international theater can be the very last thing you want. Look at the way that the US and China interpret each other's actions.
The MINIMAL (not major) amount of vowels in a language is 3, not 5!"What happens if we want five?
Like I said, no offence to Arpee, but I think he really needs to sit back for a bit and evaluate why he feels the way he does about this problem. I don't mind passion, but similar to what Donniedillon, there's a whole lot of "well, who cares?". Conlanging and things like Esperanto, Interlingua, etc are hobbies in retrospect, as it's not the languages themselves so much but circumstances around them which are out of our control which tend to choose what happens with these languages and whatnot.
lavagulo (프로필 보기) 2010년 5월 17일 오전 12:19:32
K1attack, I'm beginning to think that you are some kind of a troll and that this Arpee you keep mentioning is just a fictional character that you have invented to irritate the members of this forum. I see some evidence that you have succeeded.
You have been asked who this Arpee is, and you haven't answered. You have been asked who cares what this Arpee writes, and you haven't responded. No one is asking your pal Arpee to like Esperanto. No one is asking you to like Esperanto. And I think many of us are beginning to not care whether you like it or not.
You write very well, K1attack, but much of what you write is simply gobble-dee-gook. You appear to be baiting us. Either that or you are the most indecisive person that I have ever met.
Foriru, trolo, foriru!
You have been asked who this Arpee is, and you haven't answered. You have been asked who cares what this Arpee writes, and you haven't responded. No one is asking your pal Arpee to like Esperanto. No one is asking you to like Esperanto. And I think many of us are beginning to not care whether you like it or not.
You write very well, K1attack, but much of what you write is simply gobble-dee-gook. You appear to be baiting us. Either that or you are the most indecisive person that I have ever met.
Foriru, trolo, foriru!
RiotNrrd (프로필 보기) 2010년 5월 17일 오전 1:19:14
This is a site dedicated to Esperanto, not general IAL's. The people who come here are interested in Esperanto. Many people here may also be interested in other languages as well, but the primary focus of this site is Esperanto.
So, whether or not another IAL (even if only a theoretical one) is or might be "better" than Esperanto, using some arbitrary set of criteria, is irrelevant to the focus of this site. Some other language could be absolutely and objectively the best and easiest language POSSIBLE, and THIS site would STILL be about Esperanto and only Esperanto.
The majority of Esperanto learners simply aren't interested in the perceived flaws of Esperanto or perceived superiorities of other languages. They are just interested in learning Esperanto, for a variety of reasons that may or may not include the concern about which IAL is "best".
If non-westerners have trouble learning the language, so what? If some sounds are difficult for some people to pronounce, so what? If the words are too long or too short, too artificial looking, too difficult to say, too whatever, so what? If the language lacks this, or has too much of that, or doesn't do something the way you would like it to, so what?
If Esperanto isn't suited to being a global bridge language, for this or that reason, so what?
Esperanto is what it is, and people can choose to learn it, or they can choose to ignore it. It's no skin off anyone elses back either way. The people who learn it can do with it whatever they want, and the people who don't can go amuse themselves some other way.
You wouldn't think this would be such a difficult concept.
So, whether or not another IAL (even if only a theoretical one) is or might be "better" than Esperanto, using some arbitrary set of criteria, is irrelevant to the focus of this site. Some other language could be absolutely and objectively the best and easiest language POSSIBLE, and THIS site would STILL be about Esperanto and only Esperanto.
The majority of Esperanto learners simply aren't interested in the perceived flaws of Esperanto or perceived superiorities of other languages. They are just interested in learning Esperanto, for a variety of reasons that may or may not include the concern about which IAL is "best".
If non-westerners have trouble learning the language, so what? If some sounds are difficult for some people to pronounce, so what? If the words are too long or too short, too artificial looking, too difficult to say, too whatever, so what? If the language lacks this, or has too much of that, or doesn't do something the way you would like it to, so what?
If Esperanto isn't suited to being a global bridge language, for this or that reason, so what?
Esperanto is what it is, and people can choose to learn it, or they can choose to ignore it. It's no skin off anyone elses back either way. The people who learn it can do with it whatever they want, and the people who don't can go amuse themselves some other way.
You wouldn't think this would be such a difficult concept.
