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Quick question about aĵ

貼文者: Starkman, 2010年5月24日

訊息: 28

語言: English

Frankouche (顯示個人資料) 2010年5月25日下午9:08:29

I would say it's simply the "ĝ" without the "d".

Some words with ĝ, you can say (and maybe know) with ĵ in french :

Joan (of Arc) - Ĵan
Cage - Kaĵ
Page - Paĵ
Magic - Maĵik
Mirage - Miraĵ
Moulin rouge - Mulin ruĵ okulumo.gif

Maybe the song "Frere Jacques, dormez vous ?" (brother Jack, are you sleeping) - Frer Ĵak, dorme vu ?
And you certainly know the useful : Je t'aime - Ĵe tem rideto.gif

Miland (顯示個人資料) 2010年5月25日下午10:30:30

erinja:
Miland:
erinja:Starkman, you know the word "Taj", like in "Taj Mahal"? That would be the aĵ sound. Taj would be written as "Taĵ".
That is a Westernised form; the original is Taĝ, as this wiki article indicates.
I hope you're not implying that it isn't ok to use the widespread English pronunciation of a well-known foreign location to illustrate how to pronounce an Esperanto word..Does it mean I'm being a bad person if I tell someone that "pants" rhymes with "France"?..if you can believe Wikipedia, it seems that even in Hindi, which lacks a letter /ʒ/ (ĵ)..
I am saying that it may be better to use an English word than a popular but inaccurate version of a foreign name, which may be pronounced differently (and more accurately) in lots of other places. "Pants" to my ears rhymes with "Franz" (as in Archduke Ferdinand), not "France"; the corresponding respective Esperanto transliterations would be Franc and Frans. Being a bad person is another matter; you would have to commit a serious sin, like discouraging the singing of La Espero, to qualify.
As for the Hindi Devanagari alphabet, the letter immediately following ज is झ (found on wiki), and arguably the sound of ĵ may lie between the two.

ceigered (顯示個人資料) 2010年5月26日上午1:05:41

Miland:"Pants" to my ears rhymes with "Franz" (as in Archduke Ferdinand), not "France"; the corresponding respective Esperanto transliterations would be Franc and Frans.wiki), and arguably the sound of ĵ may lie between the two.
Just to add to the joyous confusion, to me, Franz rhymes with barns,pants rhymes with ants, and France rhymes with chance okulumo.gif

The audio courses here on lernu should be good for learning all the sounds of the language though, just listen carefully a few times and they're will probably be less confusion than there is here with our horribly misaligned dialects lango.gif

erinja (顯示個人資料) 2010年5月26日上午2:57:56

Miland, then, perhaps you can tell us which natively English word has the aĵ sound in it.

Miland (顯示個人資料) 2010年5月26日下午7:19:17

erinja:Miland, then, perhaps you can tell us which natively English word has the aĵ sound in it.
How about "azure"? Seriously, the "a" isn't a problem, so I would say that ĵ sounds like the "s" in "pleasure".
I would also concede that in Washington, if you know that everyone there pronounces "Taj" like Taĵ (though I wonder whether "raj" would be pronounced like raĵ rather than raĝ?), then using the example is merely being practical as a teacher. As to whether it's worth knowing about the pronunciation Taĝ, I would say possibly a little, from a general educational viewpoint.
In short, I wouldn't overestimate the importance of the matter. Iru en paco!

Miland (顯示個人資料) 2010年5月26日下午7:23:05

ceigered:..to me, Franz rhymes with barns..lango.gif
Does "Franz" really sound like "farns" to you, or did you read it as "Farnz", being up at past midnight?

erinja (顯示個人資料) 2010年5月26日下午8:07:44

Miland:How about "azure"?
It's the wrong A sound, at least in my local accent.

3rdblade (顯示個人資料) 2010年5月27日上午1:14:01

How about a nice bowl of potage (potaĵ)? It's a French word originally (as so many food words in English are) but it's been around for ages in English.

3rdblade (顯示個人資料) 2010年5月27日上午3:26:37

It's the correct pronunciation, which comes from the French. In Australia we pronounce foreign words like that our own way because if we say them 'foreign' we might come off as affected or snobby, which is a no-no. I think a lot of Australians would pronounce it 'potiĝ', but I'd wager both would be understood. Another example: I live in 'Kioto', but when I talk to my mum I say 'Kioŭtoŭ.'

This reminds me of a conversation on the Simpsons, where one character mention to Moe the bartender about his garage. iirc:

"Oh, 'garaĵ' he says! La-de-da!" says Moe.
"What do you call it, Moe?" says Homer.
"Car hole!"

ceigered (顯示個人資料) 2010年5月27日上午8:40:27

Miland:
ceigered:..to me, Franz rhymes with barns..lango.gif
Does "Franz" really sound like "farns" to you, or did you read it as "Farnz", being up at past midnight?
Well, no, it's just that there's no word "brarns" rido.gif

The best way to put it Esperante would be "fraanz" - you probably know what vowel I'm trying to explain, that Queen's English "aaaaa" sound in father.

And I had no idea we were aiming for "ajx" as a whole, I apologise, I thought we were just going for "jx" shoko.gif

@ 3rdblade:
Even then with the attempts to pronounce words our own way, it differs so much from state to state from community to community to socio-economic class doesn't it? rido.gif I swear every time I've had a victorian and south australian in the same room, one will end up saying the other sounds British or posh okulumo.gif
I must admit though I've only heard potage being pronounced as "potajx" and never "potigx" - unless it was spelt "pottage" in which case "potigx" is something I'd expect to hear. Amazing how one extra T throws everything out.

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