Tin nhắn: 20
Nội dung: English
ceigered (Xem thông tin cá nhân) 09:27:08 Ngày 28 tháng 5 năm 2010
3rdblade:Esperanto perhaps moreso because of its regularity.I totally agree, I did a bit of Russian, Swedish, Indonesian, French, volapük etc etc before this, but the most helpful thing for me for learning how many rules work was Esperanto - and now everytime I learn something about this it's quite a joy and quite pleasant because I can relate it to Esperanto somehow.
goliath07 (Xem thông tin cá nhân) 21:23:08 Ngày 18 tháng 10 năm 2012
I didn't come due to I had to go to the store. (incorrect)
English and esperanto will use because in that situation.
OR (Because English likes to be confusing) you could also say "due to the fact."
I didn't come /sed/because/due to the fact I had to go to the store.
jchthys (Xem thông tin cá nhân) 04:06:18 Ngày 24 tháng 10 năm 2012
goliath07:I have always translated pro as "due to". In English you would use due to instead of because when a noun statement is following. Also, if you have a sentence with a verb action, "due to" would sound incorrect.Good point.
I didn't come due to I had to go to the store. (incorrect)
English and esperanto will use because in that situation.
OR (Because English likes to be confusing) you could also say "due to the fact."
Just as English uses "due to the fact that", one can use pro ke in Esperanto. I often do this to translate "because" when it is at the beginning of a sentence.
When I use ĉar at the beginning of a sentence, I use it as one might use "for" in really formal English—to explain what I said previously.
On the other hand, if I'm explaining what comes after (like the word "since" in English), I like using pro ke (or more fully as pro tio, ke) instead. In this way, the reader knows that I'm not explaining what came before, but anticipating what is to come.
Example of "because" referring back:
Li ofte babilis; la aliaj nur sidis kaj aŭskultis. Ĉar ili sciis, ke aŭskulti estas plej bone ol paroli, eĉ se ili estas plej saĝaj ol li.
He often spoke on and on; the others only sat and listened. For they knew [or color=blue]Because they knew[/color]] that to listen is better than to speak, even if they were wiser than he.
Example of "because" referring forward:
Ŝi loĝis ekster la urbo. Pro tio, ke [aŭ color=green]Pro ke[/color]] ŝi ne havis aŭton, ŝi ofte piedpaŝis dek du mejlojn por viziti siajn geamikojn.
She lived outside the city. Since [or color=blue]Because[/color], or Due to the fact that] she did not have a car, she often travelled twelve miles on foot to visit her friends.
I know that it is common and completely acceptable to use ĉar to refer forwards, and others recommend it over pro ke. Still, I find it a bit ambiguous.
jchthys (Xem thông tin cá nhân) 04:17:16 Ngày 24 tháng 10 năm 2012
Evildela:Questions,The difference is that sed is a conjunction, while tamen is an adverb.
When should I use 'tamen' and 'sed'? I know sed is but, however tamen can also mean but, plus it can mean a few other things. So basically I want to know when I should use each, and how to best distinguish.
Sed joins two sentences together; it works just like "and". It might also stand at the beginning of a sentence to set it apart from the sentence before, just like "and".
(Your writing teacher may have told you not to do this. But it can still be an effective transition.)
Tamen is like "nevertheless". It underlines the fact that what you're saying is in contrast to what you just said. It usually is near the beginning of a sentence—the first word, or after the first phrase. You might even translate it as "on the other hand", or "despite this", or some other phrase.
I couldn't go, but my friend could.
Mi ne povis iri, sed mia amikino ja povis.
I couldn't go; however, my friend could.
Mi ne povis iri; tamen mia amikino ja povis.
I couldn't go; my friend, on the other hand, could go.
Mi ne povis iri. Mia amikino tamen ja povis.
Since tamen is just an adverb that can emphasize this contrast, it can even be used in a clause that begins with sed. Here's an example from Zamenhof, culled from the Reta Vortaro:
Mi ne scias la hispanan lingvon, sed per helpo de vortaro mi tamen komprenis vian leteron.
I do not know Spanish, but with the help of a dictionary I still understood your letter.
(Or: […] but despite this I understood your letter, with the help of a dictionary.)
Chainy (Xem thông tin cá nhân) 08:09:39 Ngày 24 tháng 10 năm 2012
jchthys:I like using pro ke (or more fully as pro tio, ke)"Pro ke" sounds very strange. It's much better to say "pro tio, ke" - this form is also much easier to understand.
erinja (Xem thông tin cá nhân) 10:43:09 Ngày 24 tháng 10 năm 2012
You need that "tio" in there, otherwise it doesn't make grammatical sense.
...however, Ido seems to accept "pro ke", so if you have been reading any Ido texts, that might have given you a misleading impression about that form's acceptability in Esperanto.
edit: Or maybe you confused it with "por ke", which *is* correct, and is used (with a different meaning, of course)
darkweasel (Xem thông tin cá nhân) 11:56:35 Ngày 24 tháng 10 năm 2012
erinja:I would go so far as to say that "pro ke" is out and out wrong, and I would strongly avoid it.I wouldn't - PMEG: Rolvorteto rekte antaŭ ke-frazo calls it just unusual, but not wrong.
tommjames (Xem thông tin cá nhân) 12:32:54 Ngày 24 tháng 10 năm 2012
darkweasel:I wouldn't - PMEG: Rolvorteto rekte antaŭ ke-frazo calls it just unusual, but not wrong.I guess it depends on how you define "wrong".
PMEG doesn't say it's wrong but it comes pretty close: "Oni ne senbezone esprimu sin en maniero tiel nekutima, ke oni eble ne estas komprenata." (You shouldn't express yourself in such an unusual way that misunderstanding may result).
For me, speaking in a way "so unusual that you may be misunderstood" is indeed wrong. In the case of "pro ke" I don't really see much chance of misunderstanding, but it really grates on the ear; you just never see this form. And that too, at least in my book, is reason enough to call it wrong.
jchthys (Xem thông tin cá nhân) 04:06:30 Ngày 25 tháng 10 năm 2012
I wonder how other people deal with the ambiguity of a forward-looking versus a backward-looking ĉar? Now that I read more examples, pro tio, ke seems to just have a different flavour than ĉar.
erinja (Xem thông tin cá nhân) 01:09:22 Ngày 29 tháng 10 năm 2012
We don't use "because" in every single case in English, right?