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Viking war cry

от Evildela, 26 май 2010

Съобщения: 23

Език: English

ceigered (Покажи профила) 27 май 2010, 08:44:56

jan aleksan:As a non native, I don't fully understand "Lo there", but as I understood it in the 13th warrior, I would translate it by "Jen tie".
I was thinking "Jen tie" as well - it's as if it's pointing towards someone standing buy, at least that's how I read it...

How would "petas min" and "okupu" work?

"Ili petas ke mi okupu" or "Ili petas min ke mi okupu"? I would have normally avoided such a construction and gone with "Ili petas mi okupi" but I guess now's a good time to ask this..

tommjames (Покажи профила) 27 май 2010, 09:48:32

ceigered:"Ili petas ke mi okupu" or "Ili petas min ke mi okupu"?
Both are fine. I usually use a comma before the "ke" though.

One example of where you should use the U-mode would be "voli" where you would say "mi volas, ke vi venu" and not "mi volas vin veni", and I'll explain why: supposing I wanted to say "I want you to eat" and I translated it "mi volas vin manĝi", what you would have actually said here is "I want to eat you"! So you can see why the volitive construction is necessary in many cases, and of course you can apply it to any situation that has some idea of plea or insistence about it. But on some verbs it's quite fine to use the infinitive along with a direct object for the main verb. Further info on that here, with the example I cited from PMEG of "petas vin trinki".

jan aleksan (Покажи профила) 27 май 2010, 09:49:40

ceigered:

"Ili petas ke mi okupu" or "Ili petas min ke mi okupu"? I would have normally avoided such a construction and gone with "Ili petas mi okupi" but I guess now's a good time to ask this..
from ReVo: " peti ion de iu, el iu, al iu

I would say Ili petas de/al mi ke mi okupu...

And I think "vokas min" is more correct

orthohawk (Покажи профила) 27 май 2010, 09:51:34

ceigered:
jan aleksan:As a non native, I don't fully understand "Lo there", but as I understood it in the 13th warrior, I would translate it by "Jen tie".
I was thinking "Jen tie" as well - it's as if it's pointing towards someone standing buy, at least that's how I read it...

How would "petas min" and "okupu" work?

"Ili petas ke mi okupu" or "Ili petas min ke mi okupu"? I would have normally avoided such a construction and gone with "Ili petas mi okupi" but I guess now's a good time to ask this..
I think "jen" incorporates the "there" part.
I'd say either "ili petas, ke mi okupu" or "ili petas min okupi" with a preference to the first. the "ke mi" takes car of who is being asked and also who is to occupy. YMMV

ceigered (Покажи профила) 27 май 2010, 10:08:10

Cheers Jan and tommjames - and thanks orthohawk for that explanation at the end, I guess that the part after "ke" is effectively a noun clause and thus acts like an object anyway thus elimating the need for anything in between "petas" and "ke".

Miland (Покажи профила) 27 май 2010, 11:43:59

tommjames:to my mind they're pretty much equal.
I wouldn't disagree with their being pretty similar, or the functional equivalence you cite from PMEG; I was thinking more about the rhetoric or poetic impact of the words in the context. Thus 'Friends, Romans, countrymen, give me your ears' sounds a bit better than 'Good pals and people who hold Roman passports like ours, pay attention'.

Evildela (Покажи профила) 27 май 2010, 13:40:37

Thanks for all the comments, I've learnt alot about Esperanto from this single thread.

erinja (Покажи профила) 27 май 2010, 14:41:19

Miland:Thus 'Friends, Romans, countrymen, give me your ears' sounds a bit better than 'Good pals and people who hold Roman passports like ours, pay attention'.
Right, and what you said sounds better than "Hey everyone, listen up!"

Starkman (Покажи профила) 27 май 2010, 17:21:39

I think that it might be more clear if we talk in terms of first, second and third persons (and not just first and third): I/we - first person; you (sing/plural) second person; he/she/it/they - third person.

This is how it is in English, so I'm wondering if it works in Esperanto?

I ran across the 'sia' issue in the book "Teach Yourself Esperanto," for which it was first AND second persons 'sia' is not used; only for third person. This is how I remember the rule.

Starkman

ceigered (Покажи профила) 28 май 2010, 09:20:14

erinja:
Miland:Thus 'Friends, Romans, countrymen, give me your ears' sounds a bit better than 'Good pals and people who hold Roman passports like ours, pay attention'.
Right, and what you said sounds better than "Hey everyone, listen up!"
Which sounds a lot better than "OJ! VI!"

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