(Thank you to those who replied to ka_veh's rant-esque posts on my behalf, saving me the bother.)

ka_veh:

horsto:I always think that there are a lot of things similar in Esperanto and german, but perhaps people from other languages have the same feeling.

Why are you looking for similarity? Why do you reduce the Esperanto to a toy for playing around with?
Is Esperanto Esperanto, or it is something similar to something else?
Shit! I thought Esperanto was a language BY ITSELF with no absolute need to be proven by other languages or a need to be similar to any of them!
Seems I was wrong.

I never wrote that I'm looking for similarity. Please tell me how you avoid to find similarities when you learn a new language.

ka_veh:Why don't you simply explain your hidden ideas which are embedded in English or any other languages in Esperanto? Why do you insist to PUT YOUR NATIVE TERMS IN ESPERANTO TONGUE?

I think nobody here insists to "PUT NATIVE TERMS IN ESPERANTO TONGUE", everbody here knows that you can't translate word by word from one language to another. Of course the aim is to express the idea in Esperanto.
But do you really think that this is simple?
Look at the debates about such simple words as "cool". It seems that nobody is really able to describe the "hidden ideas" behind it's usage.

If you think that people here use bad translations, why don't you simply help them and show better ones, I think they thankfully will accept them.

ka_veh:I always think that there are a lot of things similar in Esperanto and german
, but perhaps people from other languages have the same feeling.

Why are you looking for similarity? Why do you reduce the Esperanto to a toy for playing around with?
Is Esperanto Esperanto, or it is something similar to something else?
S--t! I thought Esperanto was a language BY ITSELF with no absolute need to be proven by other languages or a need to be similar to any of them!
Seems I was wrong.

Yep, you were wrong.

As Horsto already asked:

horsto:Please tell me how you avoid to find similarities when you learn a new language.

(Since, scientifically, your brain automatically WILL try its best to find similarities in any new language or unrecognisable language with ANY that you ALREADY KNOW. The fact the human brain even tries to cross reference a new language with ones it already knows means it accepts that what it's hearing must be some form of bonafide human language. So, ka_veh, you're complaints to Horsto fly in the face of what you're seemingly wanting, which is for people to accept this language, Esperanto, as real. Any language that can't be proven by another language simply won't be registered by the human mind as being recognisable or understandable, and thus the human brain would completely overlook the idea that it could be a language altogether. Of course, it's different for most people - e.g. some feel that bird calls and dolphin noises sound like a language, while others feel they are just noise).

(Also, who cares if EO's being treated like a toy? Is it not a toy in some ways to the human psyche? It certainly isn't a living being with dignity and rights if that's what you're insinuating).

ka_veh:From "La Bona Lingvo" by Claude Piron:

"Esperanto is not a national language, and does not share their aims or functions.
The criterion for judging its merit should not therefore be the extent to which it is capable of doing what national languages do, but the extent to which it fulfils its own function: acting as an intermediary between peoples. "

The first message I've got when I subscribed to Lernu! (Must or Should or have to)

Luckily for Claude Piron, national langauges already quite nicely act as an intermediary between peoples, otherwise languages full stop would be a waste of time and we'd all be making animal grunts to each other. EO only needs to avoid what is deemed "too unique" or "strange" in one language for someone from another. I mean, if it didn't, then Esperanto is simply as easy as any other national language, which sort of makes it a bit more pointless. So basically, I believe it's meant to be a warning from Piron that we should avoid evaluating Esperanto based on how many things from national languages it can mimic (e.g. literally translate), and instead evaluate Esperanto on how much it can compromise and make up for while being more fair for everyone.

So, simply TRANSLATING a phrase from English to Esperanto is not flying in the face of Piron's remark. However, making it so Esperanto has identical features to every feature in English, but only with "Esperanticised" words, well, that would be what Piron is warning against.

So:
"What's "let's" in Esperanto?"
"I believe it's "Ni devus" or "Ni devu"
"Oh thank you!"
is what Piron wants,

"What's "let's" in Esperanto?"
"I believe it's "Ni devus" or "Ni devu"
"What? that's stupid! Why isn't it "Lasu ni ...."? I'm gonna change the language and everyone has to learn it my way now!"
is what Piron DOESN'T want.

Being defensive doesn't make your debate logical. It is obvious that you want to put words in Esperanto tongue! Otherwise why defensive (OFFENSIVE) responds? If you find Similarity between things that's okay, but when you find similarity in order to "adjust" something or to change the origin and the nature of something to something that YOU WISH it to be, then finding similarity is ABSOLUTLY WRONG...! Makeing story short, If English is your native language did you learn it by finding similarity in French?
Clever people, you are destroying Esperanto (IF this language is really a language); and you are blind to this fact... Good job to you all.. No more debates over this issue...

ceigered:What's "let's" in Esperanto?"

You may ask me what is let's in Farsi!
We do not have such a term (as you use it in you expressions) and we do not give a damn! Why should we have it...
You have it because you are English!
We do not have such a thing as let's do it! in Farsi..
If I translate it to farsi it will become meaningless to Persinas.
Now consider this... in Farsi we say "خر من از کره گی دم نداشت"
That statement works perfectly in Farsi.. what is that statement in English?
YOU do not have it and for what reason you have to have it?
Why should you give a damn!
If "I want you!" to understand that statement I have to explain it to you... I can not just say that: " my donky had no tail from the very beginning"... you won't get it!
Now returning back to what is "Let's" in Esperanto..
You are making "Let's" out of it!
Let's had no meaning in Farsi and the same will happen to me when I read you in Esperanto... Still no meaning!
What did you do? You did what I did to my translation from Farsi to English.. "My donkey had no tail from the very beginning"

ceigered:What's "let's" in Esperanto?"

You may ask me what is let's in Farsi!
We do not have such a term (as you use it in you expressions) and we do not give a damn! Why should we have it...
You have it because you are English!
We do not have such a thing as let's do it! in Farsi..

You technically do have a thing such as "let's" in Farsi, it just has a different form.

The actual name for this is the "first person plural imperative" in linguistic speak. It might not have a form, e.g. you may not see it, in which case it is implied, e.g., you understand that the meaning of the imperative has been said/written, even if there is no actual word or writing for it. No doubt you've told someone in Farsi that you want to do an action with them before. That's more or less what the imperative is. In English, we have a word for it. In Esperanto, we don't.

If you find Similarity between things that's okay, but when you find similarity in order to "adjust" something or to change the origin and the nature of something to something that YOU WISH it to be, then finding similarity is ABSOLUTLY WRONG...! Makeing story short, If English is your native language did you learn it by finding similarity in French?
Clever people, you are destroying Esperanto

You seriously must not know how languages work.
There is no adjusting here in any shape or form. There is only people asking how they would say something in English in Esperanto instead. E.g. if I ask what the meaning for "I want food" in Esperanto is, that does not mean I am trying to change Esperanto. It means I want food, and don't know how to communicate this in Esperanto.

What is being asked here, in this case, is how one is meant to say that they want to do an activity with people around them. In English we say "let's". In Esperanto, we don't say "Let's", we use "-u" at the end of a word. So, we have to tell the people that Esperanto works differently. We aren't destroying the language; even if we were telling them just to say it like they do in English, that wouldn't even be destruction, that would be language evolution.

(And also: many words and phrases in English are from French, so we can actually learn a lot about English from using French).

All in all, you seem to have the idea that this is about a black and white situation, about absolutes, but it's not. That flies in the face of the core of human communication. A language that does not serve the means of its people is useless - so, that must mean that because every language on the earth we have today is still being used, there are no "useless" languages.

If you want to continue this discussion, I have no problems, but from what I've read you seem to be lacking knowledge in the science of linguistics and communication.

Kaveh appears to have left lernu! I tried to send him some websites privately, but his response was not grateful:

Slauton!

I am a grown up person and I know how to find websites on the net.... It seems to me that you people have no stomach for debates and if thats true why do you have any forums at all.
I had a very simple question and you couldn't even understand it.
My question is this: "Is Esperanto a Language by itself or it is a Sub-language of any other languages?"
I mean should I first learn English or Farsi to understand Esper-english person or Esper-farsi person, or I can learn it as an stand-alone Languge?
Don't brush me off by telling me how and where and when should I find Persian sites.
If you do not like to hear criticizes just tell me that rather than showing me websites.

I am not sorry for what I have posted about Esp-english things and still I am saying if English people trying to modify Esperanto to Esp-english, Esperanto will become a useless language.
I will continue my study about Esperanto , but I will leave Lernu!
I didn't want to! but seems you like to be dictators and dictate your ideas rather than share and discus things.

That is pity.

My response could not be sent. IMO the real problem is with his attitude, and until that changes, it may indeed be best for him to leave lernu!

ka_veh:I am a grown up person

You have to chuckle.

Ayayayayay.

I have no idea where he got the idea we were Anglicising Esperanto, especially since we weren't in the slightest and were doing our best to tell beginners not to do that, but let's just let the facepalm moment come for him to discover himself.