qwertz:Yes, I say it this way native: "Der Akkusativ ist SO ein Schmerz. Ich schwör's dir!" But splitted up into two sentences. (For me, it's more a somewhat unproper word-by-word translation. I wouldn't use it this way in daily life quite often.

My point was that as a native German speaker, you could translate the sentence directly into German, and if the definite article is (supposing the word is masculine, of course) der, it is nominative, and if it is den it is accusative, in which case you would need to add an -n in Esperanto. You could do the same trick in English using the personal pronouns (but watch out for prepositions).
Whether the sentence would be idiomatic (i.e. something a native speaker would actually say) or not is a different matter.

Andybolg:

qwertz:Yes, I say it this way native: "Der Akkusativ ist SO ein Schmerz. Ich schwör's dir!" But splitted up into two sentences. (For me, it's more a somewhat unproper word-by-word translation. I wouldn't use it this way in daily life quite often.

My point was that as a native German speaker, you could translate the sentence directly into German, and if the definite article is (supposing the word is masculine, of course) der, it is nominative, and if it is den it is accusative, in which case you would need to add an -n in Esperanto. You could do the same trick in English using the personal pronouns (but watch out for prepositions).
Whether the sentence would be idiomatic (i.e. something a native speaker would actually say) or not is a different matter.

Ehm, okay. Thanks. I thougth I find a quick response rule (Daumenregel) without using my native language. Somebody told me it's better to forget the native language and dive into E-o directly. Anyway, thanks again for that trick.

qwertz:

Andybolg:

qwertz:

So, what is (making) such a pain (to her/him)?

The (bl###y) accusative-n.

In result: "The accusative-n is such a pain I swear lol."

Try translating this sentence into your native German. Would you say "den Akkusativ ist..."? I hope not. You would probably say "der Akkusativ ist...", which is nominative.

Yes, I say it this way native: "Der Akkusativ ist so ein Schmerz. Ich schwör's dir!" But splitted up into two sentences. (For me, it's more a somewhat unproper word-by-word translation. I wouldn't use it this way in daily life quite often. Especially that "I swear/ Ich schwöre". I say what I say and doesn't have to swear that it's honestly meant by me what I said. Of course I could get another view at matters later. Daily life experiences enforces further development means opinion check. Furthermore I have no religion. So, swearing doesn't have any important meaning to me.)

de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nominativ
"... Im Satz steht das Subjekt im Deutschen immer im Nominativ..." In German the subject always is set to be a nominative.

I believe I was confused by this ", I swear" at the end. English isn't my native language.

Pooh, quite tricky that linguistic stuff. I never dreamed of being attacked by that accusative topic again.

I believe I was confused by this ", I swear"

I'm sorry I didn't mean to confuse you with my extra commentary on those sentences lol. That was me just expressing a little frustration hehe but yes it could of been said without the "i swear" added on. I do want to say thanks again you guys I have a much better understanding of the accusative, so my hair pulling is kept to a minimum lol.

qwertz:If there's no victim somebody doesn't need to mark a victim (=accusative). Is that right?

That's a violent, but basically accurate, way to think of it.

Sometimes the sentence is all about the attacker, and no one else.

The attacker is angry.
The attacker is becoming red.
The attacker seems agitated.

None of these is about anybody but the attacker, so no crime has been committed (yet), and so there's nothing and no one to accuse him about.

Once you add the victim, well...

The attacker shot the victim.
The attacker stuffed the victim in the trunk of his car.
The attacker hid the victim's body in the abandoned well.

Now there's some accusations to be made. And so you mark the thing that the accusations are about (i.e., the victim).

Not a grammatically pure way of putting it, of course. More just a fun way to try and remember how it works.

RiotNrrd:
The attacker hid the victim's body in the abandoned well.

It should be noted for any confused/horrified learners, that here, "body" is the accusative word, not the victim. If one was to try and clarify that further I'm sure this thread would quickly go to an NC-17/R18/FSK18 rating

RiotNrrd:

qwertz:If there's no victim somebody doesn't need to mark a victim (=accusative). Is that right?

That's a violent, but basically accurate, way to think of it.
...
Not a grammatically pure way of putting it, of course. More just a fun way to try and remember how it works.

I red it some time ago at the German wikipedia. (Its changed now.) At this time the regarding wikipedia entry was:

"Der Akkusativ markiert die semantische Rolle, die nicht aktiv handelt, sondern etwas erleidet". "The accusative marks the semantic role, which doesn't act activly, but rather something what suffers (of) ..."

I mention that because I wrote it down into one of my e-o study books.

So that was the way I came to that "accusative = victim(violent) sufferes of ... " thinking track.

Latin: casus accusativus = „die Anklage betreffender Fall“/"concerning the accusation of the treated judicial case(?)" I probably explained the matter twice in English. (the same thing twice over) In DE-TH German "doppelt gemoppelt"

I also like how you explained that "no accusative necessary" case. Generaly I came from a teacher's family where correct spoken (including German accusative) was common. So later at school I found that German grammar lessons confusing because I still used it unconsciously the right way. Could sound somewhat arrogant but I just wanna mention that in case that some German folks wonder why I make so much bubble around what a German native still has to learn at primary school.

So seems to be that could be quick response/ thumb rule.

ceigered:

RiotNrrd:
The attacker hid the victim's body in the abandoned well.

It should be noted for any confused/horrified learners, that here, "body" is the accusative word, not the victim. If one was to try and clarify that further I'm sure this thread would quickly go to an NC-17/R18/FSK18 rating

If somebody doesn't miss the 's, then for me that's clear that it concerns the body.

Jedem, der Probleme hat, das -n richtig zu setzen, schicke ich gerne die Uebersicht ueber die 4 Regeln sowie eine Uebung, die es in sich hat.
Anfragen an peter.weide@mail.dk
Schoenen Gruss,
saliko
P.S. Geduldet euch einige Tage, ich bin bis Mitte Juli in Urlaub.

To anyone, who has problems with -n, I will gladly send the rules and an exercise.
I am on hollidaz now, i will be back home in the middle of July.
Best regards,
saliko

Some humour (Iom da humuro):
Mi estas profesoron de akuzativon.