Mesaĝoj: 16
Lingvo: English
ceigered (Montri la profilon) 2010-julio-20 13:04:27
darkweasel:I know, I was just merely commenting on how it seems similar in practice to how in English, there are words we use instead of the normal one for certain situations, e.g. "(from) whence" instead of "from where", "whence" here because it carries a meaning of "from" and otherwise it would be just "where"; the EO parallel here being using "kiom" instead of "kiel" due to the perception of quantity which "kiom" normally has instead of "kiel". An interesting parallel, nothing more or lessceigered:Kiomism seems rather like a formal style to me, reading it in context. A bit like words like "whilst" and "whence" in English, rather than "while" and "from where".To me it doesn't seem like this. I'm only showing you what PMEG says about this, and I prefer to follow what PMEG says as long as I don't see it as an absolute absurdity.
Miland (Montri la profilon) 2010-julio-20 14:27:30
1. In exercise 43, to translate "How strange it is, that" he uses Kiom strange estas, ke... Here's his reason (I translate): "In such contexts, it always depends on whether one aims at the way (kiel) or the quantity (kiom). Here I prefer quantity, so: kiom strange."
2. In exercise 48, to translate "how" in "how bad" (referring to the clothes worn by soldiers) he favours kiom aĉaj. His reason (I translate): "As always, it depends on whether we are referring to the manner or the amount of the badness. In my view, here it is a matter of amount, so kiom.
tommjames (Montri la profilon) 2010-julio-20 15:57:06
Miland, tradukante William Auld:As always, it depends on whether we are referring to the manner or the amount of the badness. In my view, here it is a matter of amount, so kiom."Kiel" doesn't just mean manner, but also grade, so I'm not altogether convinced by Auld's reasoning here. But then I'm a staunch anti tiom-kiom-isto, so perhaps to be expected.
I get the sense here that Auld just confuses the difference between grade and quantity. What he describes as "amount of badness" can be just as well thought of as grade. For a linear measure like length this seems all the more credible.
For me PMEG has it right when it says:
PMEG:"Estas rekomendinde utiligi tiun ĉi eblon tre ŝpare, por ke la emfaza efekto de tiom kaj kiom ne eluziĝu, kaj por ke la distingo inter kvantaj kaj gradaj vortoj ne fariĝu malklara"
It is recommended to use tiom/kiom very sparingly, to ensure their ability to give emphasis is not weakened, and to prevent the distinction between quantity/grade words becoming unclear.
Miland (Montri la profilon) 2010-julio-20 16:25:03
tommjames:I get the sense here that Auld just confuses the difference between grade and quantity. What he describes as "amount of badness" can be just as well thought of as grade. For a linear measure like length this seems all the more credible.I would say that both grade and quantity are in principle measurable in their effects (which is what 'grades' or rating scales try to do in practice, at least relatively), and that Auld is differentiating both from manner or the way in which something happens, in other words qualitative differences. I prefer kiom to kiel myself for this reason, where Auld uses it. But I'm not stopping anyone following PMEG's guidance.
erinja (Montri la profilon) 2010-julio-20 18:48:11
I definitely get what Bertilo says about maintaining a distinction between tiom and tiel, in order to preserve nuance.
...but I think that perhaps that ship has sailed already.
I definitely do not see a difference between them as far as formality or informality goes. I would definitely not compare either of these words to "thence" or "whence" in English, as far as projecting an idea of cultured/high-level speech.
Hertz (Montri la profilon) 2010-julio-21 21:29:36
I interpret it as if one says "kiom longe" the answer must tend to the time itself, and if "kiel longe" the answer must be more general, like "the necessary", "until I got bored", "not enough".