ceigered, thanks for touching up on the problems I've pointed out instead of just saying "Troll, Troll Troll!!!".

That's a good idea, I think I'll start pronouncing it as "kf" because other wise it will sound horrible like "akuvo" instead of "akvo". I think I can get away saying "akfo" since it's easier to pronounce.

On another area of this form someone was explaining the difference between the lasta and fina. They both means last but "lasta" is in the since that it's the "last" but there may be more in the future will "fina" is more permanent. These subtle differences of how and when to use these words are difficult and it takes more time to learn...

but on the other hand, Esperanto seems like one of the best languages for expressing my thoughts accurately and clearly. I would dare to even say, more accurate than Lojban.

Genjix:are you ::::kidding me??...

ceigered:Holy ::::, you're kidding me, right?!

Please edit your messages and remove any swear words. Small kids could be reading this.

(The other points you gentlemen make are valid though, IMO).

Arpee:In Esperanto you will keep learning and learning and never be done.

Of course! This is true for any language. I have a friend who majored in Spanish in college, lived in a Spanish speaking country, and even spent time teaching at a University in a Spanish speaking country, and yet she states that while most people would consider her fluent, she still finds that she learns new aspects and nuances of the language daily.

I like to think of Esperanto kind of like the board game Othello. On the game box was the slogan "A minute to learn, a lifetime to master." I don't see that as a bad thing, but actually part of what makes Esperanto exciting.

Donniedillon:

Arpee:In Esperanto you will keep learning and learning and never be done.

Of course! This is true for any language. I have a friend who majored in Spanish in college,...
she still finds that she learns new aspects and nuances of the language daily.

Dude, I even do this in English (e.g. my current fascination is with Anglo-Norman roots in English, since I've been learning French @ uni all year. It's like observing the history of a language that got swallowed up by some Saxon tongue, like the linguistic equivalent of palaeontology, I love it!) - my life goal* is to one day try and compile all that I've learnt about English in a format that makes learning this beautiful language a lot easier.

*fourth of course to taking over the world, discovering immortality and the art of teleportation. But probably a lot more realistic than those goals, by maybe a little bit.

Ceigered, I do that too!

It was a revelation for me when I first broke 'survive' into 'sur vive'..

I understand why these people keep cropping up with criticisms of Esperanto. I think anyone learning the language goes through times when they sense there's something not quite right with it. This is largely because you start learning it with what seems perfectly ordered logic (such as the ki-/ti- table etc and the regular verb conjugations etc). But then later on, this perfect order is shaken a little as the language tries to encompass all the finer aspects of human expression. Our minds are not computers and so a certain degree of ambiguity and creative wobbliness is a necessary element even to a planned language.

To be honest, I think it's a perfectly normal thing to get upset about and complain about a language when you're trying to learn it. There are always moments when the foreign language just doesn't seem to fit with how you think about things in your mother tongue. You just need to try and adopt the methods which the language has for expressing these certain things, which can certainly be difficult at times.

Over the years, I've put energy into learning Russian, German, Slovak and most recently French. And I'd say that Esperanto really does stick out as the easiest to learn. Yes, it has its imperfections etc, but in my mind there's no denying the fact that it's considerably more regular than other languages. And the fact that various words can be derived from one root and a good understanding of the suffixes etc, this is a real advantage to Esperanto. Ok, so other languages also have this aspect, but not to the degree that exists in Esperanto. Obviously, if you already know a European language, then you have the big advantage of being more familiar with the roots in Esperanto. But even if you're not familiar with the roots at all, at least your time/energy in learning these roots is spent very effectively as you are then able to build your vocabularly very quickly in comparison to learning other languages.

ceigered:Dude, I even do this in English (e.g. my current fascination is with Anglo-Norman roots in English, since I've been learning French @ uni all year. It's like observing the history of a language that got swallowed up by some Saxon tongue, like the linguistic equivalent of palaeontology, I love it!)

Thats interesting, I've been fascinated words from its native germanic roots and even new coinages from from them. The wiki article on Anglish discusses this. Some of the new coinages are quite humourous.

Chainy:Yes, it has its imperfections etc, but in my mind...

I think a lot of people hear "Esperanto is an artificial language", and come to some very unwarranted conclusions based on their interpretation of the word "artificial".

Often the conclusion that Esperanto "has no culture" is mentioned as one of the typical incorrect conclusions. How could something that is artificial have a culture? As far as I am concerned, I don't personally believe that ANY language has a culture - rather, cultures have languages. The culture isn't in the language, the culture is in the people. But this is a "weak" problem; the learner of Esperanto quickly discovers that there IS a culture of Esperanto speakers. Problem (for the potential student) solved.

The stronger problem, I think, is the conclusion people reach that artificial (or constructed, or planned, or whatever you want to call it) implies perfection. This is a "damaging" conclusion, because THIS one yields disappointment.

Esperanto is NOT perfect. It's VERY regular, but it isn't PERFECTLY regular. There are patterns in Esperanto that seem (and, in fact, are) entirely arbitrary (for example, adverbs always end in -e. Except for when they end in -aŭ. Why, exactly, do we have two patterns?). We have words whose established meanings seem only sort of vaguely related to their constituent parts ("publish = "eldoni"; I can SORT of see the connection, after learning it, but... really? "Publish"? NOT intuitively obvious.)

Esperanto is NOT perfect, and I wish that that was brought up more often in the literature aimed at interesting people in Esperanto. So I'll say it again, here.

Esperanto is NOT perfect. What Esperanto is is EASY. Maybe not THE easiest (I haven't done a full survey of all 6000-some extant languages, so I won't claim it's The One), but it's pretty darn easy. And THAT is its appeal to many of us.

I think the incorrect conclusion of perfection that "artificial" implies to a lot of people is what drives many students away. Esperanto's reality doesn't match the new students unrealistic expectations, and that becomes a major disappointment. And so here come the criticisms.

Esperantists do Esperanto a disservice when they attempt to hide Esperanto's imperfections. Put it out there, I say. Esperanto's imperfections are, to a large extent, what give it its own particular flavor. None of the imperfections impede communication. They are few enough not to impose too high of a learning effort. They are simply part of Esperanto's character, and are nothing to get upset about. Removing them, I think, would make the language less varied, and thus less interesting.

But, as long as people come to Esperanto with the idea that it is perfect, we will have people who leave as disappointed (or even angry) critics.

@ RiotNrrd - I saw the bit about how people can come to the conclusion that artificial = bad, cultureless, etc, and thought to myself, "why, I do believe by that definition culture is cultureless and bad too being an artificial construct!".

It appears that some people have a fear of artificiality, the irony being that their fear of artificiality is indeed artificial itself . Artificiality and culture go hand in hand after all, both being expressions of intelligence and ultimately a big mind experiment made by humanity.

@ Willhelm:

Have you by any chance checked out the Anglish Moot or any of the collective folkspraak projects? They are also of great interest to me .

@ RiotNrrd again - I agree. Imperfections = good. Well, I don't 100% agree with what I just said, however, imperfections that aren't actually imperfections but SEEN as imperfections due to an assumed idea of what perfect is, are good .

RiotNrrd:
Often the conclusion that Esperanto "has no culture" is mentioned as one of the typical incorrect conclusions. How could something that is artificial have a culture? As far as I am concerned, I don't personally believe that ANY language has a culture - rather, cultures have languages. The culture isn't in the language, the culture is in the people. But this is a "weak" problem; the learner of Esperanto quickly discovers that there IS a culture of Esperanto speakers. Problem (for the potential student) solved.

I dislike that "artificial", too. For me E-o is a constructed language. In my opinion E-o isn't like designed yogurt with wood particles - means artifical flavour - instead of real strawberry.

RiotNrrd:
Esperanto is NOT perfect, and I wish that that was brought up more often in the literature aimed at interesting people in Esperanto. So I'll say it again, here.

I read, that it still was made clear at Rauma in 1980.

RiotNrrd:
Esperantists do Esperanto a disservice when they attempt to hide Esperanto's imperfections. Put it out there, I say. Esperanto's imperfections are, to a large extent, what give it its own particular flavor. None of the imperfections impede communication. They are few enough not to impose too high of a learning effort. They are simply part of Esperanto's character, and are nothing to get upset about. Removing them, I think, would make the language less varied, and thus less interesting.

But, as long as people come to Esperanto with the idea that it is perfect, we will have people who leave as disappointed (or even angry) critics.

In my opinion, as long as people fight (also includes defense) Esperanto there will everytime sombody fight or defense back. In my opinion Raŭmismo/Civitanismo is proper for current less-militarious time spreading Esperanto. Finvenkismo comes from the time where much more conflicts like today tracked to a military conflict.

"Kulturegigu e-on, ne (necesa) batalu por/pro e-on." slogan will give that e-o spreadness more "non-military" laxness. But I'm not really satisfied with that slogan. How would you express a short slogan somebody could say stopping troll and anti-troll battles?

"Instead of putting energy into battling/defending for E-o, try to express more culture branches (i.e. music, theatre etc.) using the E-o language tool."