I must say also that it is so frustrating when I try to speak with IM for example to receive continualy my error back so discouraging.

When I try to speak english when I make errors english are understandable that I can make mistake because it is not my mother language

But with esperanto I am facing linguists and perfectionists. They don't accept my unperfectness. They all speak the best and perfectly.

For me the most important is speaking and try ing to express themself and understand each other not no error.

I expected welcome and kindness in the community. But really I feel like a stranger and rebel sometimes.

You are unhappy because people are trying to help you improve? I mean, when people extend a helping hand towards you, certainly it is your right to slap their hands away. Do it enough times, and you'll be happy to find that eventually no one will want to help you.

In the meantime, you probably need to understand that MOST people are here to improve their skill level, and that correcting someone isn't meant as some kind of insult, but rather meant to give you an opportunity to actually gain greater mastery of the language. If you don't want that, don't worry - people will eventually figure out that improvement isn't why you are here, and will stop trying to help.

kris42, some language learners like to have their errors corrected as they speak, and some language learners don't like it. I have met people of both types. Maybe you should say something at the beginning of your conversation with other Esperantists, something like "Mi scias ke mi parolas tre malperfekte, sed bonvolu ne korekti min" (I know that I speak Esperanto very imperfectly but please don't correct me). These people who are correcting you aren't trying to be jerks, they're trying to be helpful to a beginner.

In response to qwertz's comment on Esperanto culture, in my opinion, however, Esperanto speakers should learn Esperanto before worrying about developing Esperanto culture. Learn it as in, really learn it. Some people stop studying it when they reach a basic level of communication. But how can you promote Esperanto if someone asks you "Hey, how do you say [phrase] in Esperanto?" and you can't even answer? You've just lost your argument for Esperanto before you've even started.

Developing Esperanto culture is great but the important first step is to learn the language thoroughly.

You have encountered a difference in culture.

In the UK, most English people would not correct the English of a foreigner (except in a teaching situation).

It's a bit like dealing with a disability. We don't ask cripples to run faster. We don't expect a foreigner's English to be perfect.

And whilst there is plenty of humour about foreigners' English, it is not customary to be critical in face to face encounters.

[There is a famous monologue where someone is reading out a letter purporting to be from a foreign hotelier praising the amenities of his hotel. I don't remember it all, but I do remember the witty assertion that there is a French widow in every bedroom.]

However, the basic grammar of Esperanto is so simple that the expectation of Esperantists is that you should use the language correctly, and it is naturally assumed that you would want to. Generally, correction is not seen as inappropriate or offensive.

Interestingly, at least in Australia, it tends to be different in that we sometimes correct a foreigner depending on what sort of person one is - perhaps we see it as our duty to help people reach perfection. Of course, it depends how bad it is and how much we can't understand the foreign English.

This doesn't apply with Esperanto I think though because instead of people being confident native speakers who go "ah, I understand that person's Esperanto and don't think it needs any correcting", as a language filled mostly with learners/ex learners, we feel unsure about whether we should help or not in case that learner comes across someone who doesn't understand them well. So no doubt many of us try to help the learner even if they don't want the help, in an attempt to "shield" them from those who are not so forgiving of bad language.

Of course, because of that, we may sometimes come across as strict and anal (language perfectionists as you said, kris). But no doubt many see it as a "necessary evil", and are willing to be bastards (little children: please read that as "a flock of crows") in order to protect other learners from meaner people.

---
Of course, I've found that most of these people tend to help learners only on the internet or over text - when speaking the language in conversation, we tend to be less intrusive, although I unfortunately am still intrusive regardless because I'm a bit of an arrogant prat who wants to get rid of all the knowledge (or pretend knowledge) in my head

kris42:I must say also that it is so frustrating when I try to speak with IM for example to receive continualy my error back so discouraging.

When I try to speak english when I make errors english are understandable that I can make mistake because it is not my mother language

But with esperanto I am facing linguists and perfectionists. They don't accept my unperfectness. They all speak the best and perfectly.

I can confirm that partly. At the two rekontiĝoj I attended I met a lot of people who speaks and learn foreign languages. Someone who doesn't have that great talent to grasp foreign languages quickly - means having xx language learning books at the private bookshelve - someone could easily feels left out at this self-boosting very specialisied linguistic conversations. But for me it's also very faszinating to meet such people in real life. (There are a lot of polyglott videoblogs at youtube)

To respect someones unperfectness also someone needs a lot of patience. There's a reason why people join to e-o rekontiĝojn. Advanced learners also wants to improve their language skills what definitivly isn't possible with A1 and lower language skills beginners. In my opinion every e-o rekontiĝojn needs a special person who organizes e-o beginners mentoring. Maybe, I repeat maybe, participants could mark themselves optionaly with some "komencanto" stickers or something like that.

Btw. at the next JES meeting somebody excist with the role Novula what should means responsible to assist e-o beginners. Yes, they need special and patiencly assistance. Otherwise they would feel lost.

kris42:
For me the most important is speaking and try ing to express themself and understand each other not no error.

I expected welcome and kindness in the community. But really I feel like a stranger and rebel sometimes.

I believe I understand what you mean. Especially that not yourselves wished but added status of stranger and rebel just for the reasons that you behave like in normal life means taking Esperanto like a middle-efforts-like normal hobby.

erinja:
kris42, some language learners like to have their errors corrected as they speak, and some language learners don't like it. I have met people of both types. Maybe you should say something at the beginning of your conversation with other Esperantists, something like "Mi scias ke mi parolas tre malperfekte, sed bonvolu ne korekti min" (I know that I speak Esperanto very imperfectly but please don't correct me). These people who are correcting you aren't trying to be jerks, they're trying to be helpful to a beginner.

Maybe some advanced speaker should stay to correct only if some mistakes appear again and again. Not every single mistake what would be discouraging.

erinja:
In response to qwertz's comment on Esperanto culture, in my opinion, however, Esperanto speakers should learn Esperanto before worrying about developing Esperanto culture. Learn it as in, really learn it. Some people stop studying it when they reach a basic level of communication.

Maybe I didn't take the right English words to express that, but I don't promote Esperanto. I only try to find - or better hold - my interests in Esperanto for casually studies of e-o. And in my case that's only possible if there excists crazy culture fields or if e-o culture is broading expressed in Esperanto which attracts me. And I see it as my personal freedom to determine by myself the amount of efforts I'm putting into studying Esperanto and how to organize my sparetime. If someone can't respect that, then - sorry for that hard words - than they have a problem with that. Not me by myself. I feel good with my non-linguistic view of point.

erinja:
But how can you promote Esperanto if someone asks you "Hey, how do you say [phrase] in Esperanto?" and you can't even answer? You've just lost your argument for Esperanto before you've even started.

I don't need arguments for Esperanto. Either someones like Esperanto or someones doesn't. That's fine if someones doesn't. But if someone starts chipping on Esperanto, then, yes, I get feel to promote for E-o. It's another question if that attack triggers me to defend e-o. I try not to defend e-o and not let myself provoke.

erinja:
Developing Esperanto culture is great but the important first step is to learn the language thoroughly.

For mean that sounds like I first have to pass some language skills examination before I'm allowed to "celebrate" e-o culture(?) i.e. "You wanna sing a karaokeo song with that bad language skills? Do some language studies and come back later again"?. Is that a closed linguists circle that e-o community? How should it happen with that entry walls to adapt non-esperantists cultures and spread e-o? Who knows better how that other culture fields work than the people who come from the culture fields directly? And mostly don't speak e-o very well in the beginning?

qwertz, I think you're misunderstanding me.

Let's say that some Esperanto speaker loves folk songs.

I'm not saying that you shouldn't enjoy Esperanto folk songs before you speak good Esperanto.

I'm saying that you shouldn't write your own folk song website entirely in Esperanto, organize your own Esperanto folk singing competition, and award prizes for the best new folk song - if you haven't learned Esperanto to a pretty good level yet. Because your website will be badly written (since you don't really speak it), you won't speak the language well enough to communicate with the people who enter your competition, and your language level is not good enough to judge someone else's work, let alone write a coherent sentence.

I'm not saying that you do this, and it wasn't meant to be an attack against you. Of course if someone loves folk songs, they should feel free to write their own folk songs in Esperanto (even bad Esperanto) as a learning exercise, or they should feel free to do whatever they please.

But I have seen people (not you) who love a certain topic, and they make elaborate plans for some kind of online or in-person event related to their topic, but they never bothered to learn Esperanto well, and the whole website (or flier, or whatever thing) is written in bad Esperanto that you can barely understand. And then these people get offended that no one wants to participate in their event/website/whatever. I have seen this both in person and online.

What I'm saying is, yes, participate in the aspects of Esperanto that you love, study Esperanto to whatever level you feel like studying it to. But if you want to become the kind of person who actively contributes to Esperanto culture rather than consuming it (through planning an event, holding a concert of songs you wrote yourself, whatever) - then in this case, I think it's important to actually LEARN the language to a pretty good level. Not perfectly, but well enough that you can always be understood well, you can communicate with other Esperantists without a problem, etc.

Regarding correcting beginners, someone has already said something like this but I just wanted to add my +1, in my opinion it's considered ok to correct people in text-based communications, to some degree at least - but not in face to face conversation. In fact, unless the beginner specifically told you they wanted to be corrected, it's considered rude to correct a beginner in face-to-face conversations.

Of course, if they are using a word that clearly doesn't mean what they think it means, I let them know. Hey, Mr. Beginner, uh, you might want to know that kanabo means marijuana, KNABO means boy. Etc. But it would be rude to correct their grammar.

erinja:
qwertz, I think you're misunderstanding me.
...
But I have seen people (not you) who love a certain topic, and they make elaborate plans for some kind of online or in-person event related to their topic, but they never bothered to learn Esperanto well, and the whole website (or flier, or whatever thing) is written in bad Esperanto that you can barely understand. And then these people get offended that no one wants to participate in their event/website/whatever. I have seen this both in person and online.

Yes, I understand. I know a case where that happend with a person onsite where I live. For the case of e-o karaokeo I'm involved I didn't encounter that big refusal by DEJ organisation team apart of the normal refusal of some persons of karaokeo like "karaokeo is just a stupid party gag, where drunken people singing songs in a bad manner". Of course some do, but other surprisly getting very good with that training.

erinja:
What I'm saying is, yes, participate in the aspects of Esperanto that you love, study Esperanto to whatever level you feel like studying it to. But if you want to become the kind of person who actively contributes to Esperanto culture rather than consuming it (through planning an event, holding a concert of songs you wrote yourself, whatever) - then in this case, I think it's important to actually LEARN the language to a pretty good level. Not perfectly, but well enough that you can always be understood well, you can communicate with other Esperantists without a problem, etc.

Yes, but for that you need the proper motivation. I mean proper motivation for people who aren't mainly interested in linguistics. It's a good thing to get motivated through Esperanto language itselfs. But that's probably just the motivation of linguistic freaks or people who had bad experiences with learning other natural languages. Other person first have to find another strong motivation to keep studying Esperanto. I.e. seen at this current thread