Съобщения: 16
Език: English
Genjix (Покажи профила) 21 септември 2010, 07:35:38
Thanks
sudanglo (Покажи профила) 21 септември 2010, 09:42:57
I just looked up the two words in REVO and found useful definitions and examples.
Go to the JEB site and click on Vortaroj at the head of the page.
On the other hand if you have already made use of online resources and not found the answer to your question, perhaps you could rephrase it specifically.
sudanglo (Покажи профила) 21 септември 2010, 09:47:43
Here for example is a link which will not only tell you how to pronounce 'Klopodi' (or 'Celi') but shows you the nationality of the speaker who made the recording.
The chap pronouncing 'klopodi' comes from Czechoslovakia, the recording of 'celi' come s from a German speaker.
Yes, I know they changed the name of Czechoslovakia, but I can't be arsed with learning all these new names for countries.
ceigered (Покажи профила) 21 септември 2010, 10:01:52
I'll just cover every word related that I can think of:
Celi: aim at something, make something a goal, aim at something you want to complete. The sense of a goal or intention is more figurative, with the main sense being aiming a throw or object (like a gun or eye).
Peni: Energetically and tiringly stretch ones strength in order to attain a result (e.g. mi penis farti bone dum la ekzameno: "I was endeavouring to fare well during the examination" Gotta love 3 year old jokes)
Klopodi: Use ones capabilities and energy in order to make something done/effective by every sort of attempt (more general than peni).
Provi: Do something to see if it can be done ("prove")
@Sudanglo:
If it makes you feel better, ye ol' Československo closed shop a year after I was born, and I can never remember to call them their new name(s). Something like Sloch republic and Czevakia yeah?
Also, that site you linked to seems like a dictionary merged with some forvo features. I wonder if Forvo will ever just have a dictionary on their site...
Miland (Покажи профила) 21 септември 2010, 10:19:07
Genjix (Покажи профила) 21 септември 2010, 19:44:32
sudanglo:Do you not have a link for REVO (Reta-vortaro)?Ah, yes. I should check around more often next time. My desktop dictionary simply listed multiple meanings and I assumed it was something that had to be explained like koni/scii.
I just looked up the two words in REVO and found useful definitions and examples.
Go to the JEB site and click on Vortaroj at the head of the page.
On the other hand if you have already made use of online resources and not found the answer to your question, perhaps you could rephrase it specifically.
Thanks to all.
Genjix (Покажи профила) 21 септември 2010, 20:26:03
ceigered:Celi: aim at something, make something a goal, aim at something you want to complete. The sense of a goal or intention is more figurative, with the main sense being aiming a throw or object (like a gun or eye).Celi: Intend a small task
Peni: Energetically and tiringly stretch ones strength in order to attain a result (e.g. mi penis farti bone dum la ekzameno: "I was endeavouring to fare well during the examination" Gotta love 3 year old jokes)
Klopodi: Use ones capabilities and energy in order to make something done/effective by every sort of attempt (more general than peni).
Provi: Do something to see if it can be done ("prove")
Peni: Attempt a short term goal
Klopodi: With all energy attempt an undertaking
Provi: Attempt by trying
Why are there four words for aiming? That seems slightly retarded.
Surely those first 3 could be replaced by one word and then using et and eg for a sense of degree?
ceigered (Покажи профила) 22 септември 2010, 00:07:45
Celi is to take aim at something. So, mi celis la kuniklon per pafilo = I aimed at the rabbit with a gun.
Provi sort of means to prove, eg prove if something works. Eg mi voles provi fari la ludo = I'd like to try the game (to see how it is, see if it works, practice it before my friend comes to hand my derriere to me)
Peni and klopodi seem closest in meaning.
Peni here means to try to achieve something, but through exhausting yourself and indeed it has the sense that you may be rowing your canoe up a hill.
Klopodi is more like "I will do everything I can to make sure you are satisfied mr customer". Eg use every avenue possible to achieve a goal. Normally if you klopodi you shouldn't need to peni.
So, maybe some revised translations:
Celi - aim at
Provi - trial, prove, see if X is possible
Klopodi - do everything you can to try and achieve a goal
Peni - try your hardest, endeavor, force yourself to try, an honest hard effort into trying.
Klopodi seems most useless to me but no doubt I can still find millions of uses. Perhaps in the day of gentleman formalities where you called your opponent an imbecile instead of a f::::::*@$*%*, zamenhof decided klopodi was useful enough to constitute a word, rather than a convoluted confusing phrase.
Btw sorry for any spelling errors, a bit of mcbreakfast muffin cheese attacked my iPhones screen.
erinja (Покажи профила) 22 септември 2010, 01:28:44
Let's say that a person planned an event, and this person is hoping the event will go well.
I aim to make the event a success (celi); this is my goal, but it doesn't say anything about the level of effort I put in to make this a reality. Celi of course has the additional (primary) meaning of aiming at a target.
I try to make the event a success (provi); I am putting a degree of effort into it but the amount of effort is not specified. Provi has the additional meaning of trying in the sense of testing. You "provi" a thing to see if it's good quality, you "provi" a thing to see if it's suitable or pleasing, you "provi" (make an effort to attempt) a thing whose success is uncertain.
I take all necessary steps to ensure that the event will be a success (klopodi); I do all of my due diligence, I undertake to make the event a success by using all of my resources and capabilities to do this.
I work hard to ensure that the event will be successful (peni); I stress myself out and get tired over the effort.
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The Reta Vortaro has some interesting comments about words related to these terms; here are some translated comments:
Celi [to aim], okupiĝi [to occupy oneself], klopodi [to undertake], and zorgi [to worry/care] have related meanings, but celi emphasizes the desire for the goal to be achieved, klopodi emphasizes the external actions, steps, and attempts necessary to succeed, okupiĝi emphasizes the attention that must be paid and the mental energy spent dwelling on it, and zorgi emphasizes the worry and responsibility concerning the task to be completed
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Peni [to strive] emphasizes stress and tiredness, labori emphasizes goals and results.
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As a side note, it is interesting that the Reta Vortaro doesn't list most of these words as having related meanings, even though it is normally pretty good about linking words with related meanings to one another, and explaining the differences. I suspect that English is to blame for the confusion in meanings, in the sense that we would translate many of these words as "try", whereas other languages may have completely separate words for these ideas. So in the minds of speakers of other languages, these words might not seem so closely related as they do to English speakers.
Genjix (Покажи профила) 22 септември 2010, 09:01:10
Various goals:
Celi - neutral dimension
mi celas venki monon per blackjack
Okupiĝi - time
mi okupiĝas ludi
Klopodi - external physical actions
mi klopodas nian geedzecon
Zorgi - intent
mi zorgas helpi la senhavulojn
Peni - anxiety + stress
mi penas la testojn de la lernejo
Labori - results
mi laboras en la konstruejo
Kind of makes sense looking at in this alternative way where each one is for 'aiming' in different dimensions.