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ururimi: English

sudanglo (Kwerekana umwidondoro) 4 Gitugutu 2010 17:22:14

Otherwise it happens by 'popular vote' and you end up with the lowest common denominator
Not much confidence in the wisdom of the masses then. Erinja?

I'm sure that you use the term 'komputilo' for personal computer. That is an outstanding example of formation of the language by the masses, isn't it?

The samideanaro decided to completely ignore the earlier dictionary definitions of 'komputi' (under which a komputilo would be a meter - like gasmeter).

The whole idea of the Akademio is too 'kabineta' for my taste.

ceigered (Kwerekana umwidondoro) 4 Gitugutu 2010 21:55:41

sudanglo:The whole idea of the Akademio is too 'kabineta' for my taste.
Interesting though, but, the fact it exists and the fact it is maintained gives Esperanto a bonus though - how many other conlangs have the same "official" support for the language as Esperanto? Not many, generally because the buck lies with the creator, who's often not able to handle nor support the growth of a large growing linguistic community, at least from what I've seen.

English, that on the other hand, well, we can see what the lack of any maintaining comitee for the language has done for its expansion, evolving sound system vs its spelling, et cetera lango.gif (one might say though that because of English not being so draconian today, it allows more freedom and allows different jargons, argots and minority languages like the historical celtic languages or other indigenous languages to crop up in its holes, but I don't know if we want that with Esperanto, imagine Ido cropping up in its holes! rido.gif).

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As for lowest popular denominator, judging by the demographics, that would likely result in heavy Europeanisation of the language no doubt - which, in the internet age, where anyone and indeed myself becomes an Esperantist after doing this site, might be a bit harder to control.

Regarding komputi, since they didn't have any real need for the sense of "compute" outside basic things like that (and if they did it involved the head, abacus and slide rule I believe?), the expansion of "komputi" looks less like abuse of the original meaning and more like just another thing that changed alongside the rest of the world with the rise of the computer.

In the end, a computer's just a fancy gasmeter isn't it? rido.gif.

erinja (Kwerekana umwidondoro) 5 Gitugutu 2010 01:29:18

I have to say that for vocabulary I trust the wisdom of the masses more than for grammar. A lot of people never bother learning Esperanto thoroughly, and they end up speaking with a lot of errors. I would say that more than half of Esperantists speak with a lot of grammatical errors. I am excluding beginners from this calculation.

Evildela (Kwerekana umwidondoro) 5 Gitugutu 2010 05:49:58

I think the academy is crucial to the future survival of Esperanto, We need an overwatching body of highly experienced Esperantists to keep us lazy Anglophones, francophones ect... in check and not to just mass merge random words into the language. Its good to know that for instance websites like Lernu can ask an ultimate authority on the language to have its courses checked. For instance I’d be seriously annoyed if I started learning some vocabulary just to find out that its not the norm. For instance imagine if Lernu was teaching us the most common word for leg is Gambo while other books said Kruro. It means we would be doubling up. At least at the moment we have an international adherence because all the major Esperanto groups use one main source.

sudanglo (Kwerekana umwidondoro) 5 Gitugutu 2010 09:14:04

It has crossed my mind, Erinja, to wonder what the effect is of having Esperanto so accessible - through sites like Lernu and many others.

I think that when I learnt Esperanto (pre-Net) it was, perhaps, a more elitist/academic pursuit. Outside, obvious beginners, I can't say that grammatical errors were that common in my day at the congresses I went to.

I used to have the view that it was almost impossible to speak 'broken' Esperanto. But exploring the Forums at Lernu has shifted my opinion on this.

However, the resources now freely available (through the Net) - PMEG, Tekstaro, CorpusEye, Literature, etc. - are so rich that there is no excuse for anybody who wants to use the language correctly not being able to succeed.

ceigered (Kwerekana umwidondoro) 5 Gitugutu 2010 11:49:01

This is an interesting thing you bring up Sudanglo about pre-net esperantism, and the academic side to it. I wonder if now, thanks to the readily accessible information on the internet, if people who would like to be in that academic niche are finally getting the chance to do so, thus rather than a new group of people being drawn to Esperanto, it's just a growth of the original group, or whether there are now more "non-academic" types learning it simply because it exists.

I certainly must say the only other Esperantist I've met is quite a language aficionado, which a rich interest in cultures that aren't his own, and I don't think EO was the turning point for him in any way whatsoever. But for myself, I found that Esperanto helped invigorate my curiosity about such things, almost like using an escalator to wanting to seek knowledge.

Miland (Kwerekana umwidondoro) 5 Gitugutu 2010 12:03:44

The internet should help ensure the long-term survival of the language. There may be a certain cost in terms of 'anarchy', in that in Esperanto clubs where people met face to face in the past, peer pressure would discourage experimenting too much with innovations to the language, which can be done much more easily through internet forums. The E-o community will have to adapt to the situation. It makes the standardising roles of congresses, and the Akademio more vital.

erinja (Kwerekana umwidondoro) 5 Gitugutu 2010 13:29:41

Sudanglo, you raise an interesting point.

I think that perhaps you had a minority experience at the congresses you attended, or else perhaps in your area, only experienced Esperantists bothered attending congresses.

I have met Esperantists who speak Esperanto that is beyond broken, but who learned it before Esperanto became widespread on the net (and before lernu existed). This means they have "spoken" it for more than 10 years, but they still don't speak it.

This quote has always rung true for me:
"La Esperantistoj, jes, ili havas multajn mankojn. Antaŭ ĉio ili ne scias sian lingvon! Ili tiel malbone parolis!...Mi opinias ke Esperanton plej necese devas lerni la Esperantistoj mem!"

The Esperantists, yes, they have many shortcomings. Above all, they don't know their own language! They spoke so badly!...I think that it's the Esperantists themselves who have the greatest need to learn Esperanto!

This quote might have come from 2010. But it came from a interview with the famous ex-Esperantist Kabe. Kabe left Esperanto in 1910 and he gave the interview in 1931. His comments about things remaining the same came from his recounting of his experience in 1927, hearing Esperanto spoken in a radio report on a post-congress meeting.

You can read the complete interview here, one of the most interesting things I have ever read on Libera Folio.
1931 interview with Kabe

Often it seems like nothing much changes in Esperanto. This isn't the only old account of the Esperanto movement that I have read, that rang true for me, even today.

sudanglo (Kwerekana umwidondoro) 5 Gitugutu 2010 16:31:00

Yes - very interesting account, Erinja. Thanks for bringing it to my attention.

I had to laugh out loud at one point
Kabe komencas rakonti pri la strangeco de la tipoj, kiaj amase svarmas en nia movado
That certainly hasn't changed. Ankoraŭ svarmas la stranguloj.

mihxil (Kwerekana umwidondoro) 5 Gitugutu 2010 17:25:11

sudanglo: think that when I learnt Esperanto (pre-Net) it was, perhaps, a more elitist/academic pursuit. Outside, obvious beginners, I can't say that grammatical errors were that common in my day at the congresses I went to.
I'd say that perhaps nowadays because of internet there is more actual need to learn it up to a usable level, because the people one encounters in the net daily are actual foreigners. While I suppose that in the local Esperanto clubs one could and often did simply talk the local language.

Also the poem of Baghy came to mind, which must be quite old too, and made me think that the non-speaking esperantist was quite common...

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