horsto:

qwertz:
So, please, let the reader of my posted links judging by oneselves. For your interest/FYI: It's named "opinion's tolerance" and "open-mind".

Thanks.

Perhaps you should consider that I'm also a reader of your "posted links". I really don't know why I shouldn't have the right to express my opinion.

You certainly have the right, but I think constructive criticism instead of comments on the verge of insulting would have been better, ekzemple:
"Qwertz, I know you like those videos but I don't think they will be helpful, because of (REASON1) and (REASON2) et cetera".

You mightn't have intended it, but at least to me the way your original message was worded like you were assuming that it was a useless video for everyone, without giving a clear reason or making qwertz's efforts to help sound welcome. Which might have made qwertz feel like he was unwanted. But I doubt you were actually trying to do that, so perhaps something is a little lost in translation

Eitherway - I must agree with horsto's original post to some extent qwertz, in that I found those videos a little too daunting and confusing, being inexperienced with spoken esperanto, and so perhaps that might not help learners if they don't understand it spoken. But thank you for those links regardless

Come on. He simply said those videos weren't worth watching in straight words. He didn't say you were bad. We can all have our own views.

ceigered:

horsto:

qwertz:
So, please, let the reader of my posted links judging by oneselves. For your interest/FYI: It's named "opinion's tolerance" and "open-mind".

Thanks.

Perhaps you should consider that I'm also a reader of your "posted links". I really don't know why I shouldn't have the right to express my opinion.

You certainly have the right, but I think constructive criticism instead of comments on the verge of insulting would have been better, ekzemple:
"Qwertz, I know you like those videos but I don't think they will be helpful, because of (REASON1) and (REASON2) et cetera".

I assume it took Sylvain Lelarge at least 2 weeks and more to develop and memorize that concept. And then someone comes and devalues that work categorizing "don't waste your time/ don't give it a trial that scrap"? That's not fair.

ceigered:
You mightn't have intended it, but at least to me the way your original message was worded like you were assuming that it was a useless video for everyone, without giving a clear reason or making qwertz's efforts to help sound welcome. Which might have made qwertz feel like he was unwanted. But I doubt you were actually trying to do that, so perhaps something is a little lost in translation

Well, I believe I can distinct between king-individulists and fellows due to the fact that's it's not very difficult to trip over king-individualists in Munich (where I live now). Btw. today's Day of German reunification. Even if king-individulism* and fellowism are not really compatible. Anyway, Happy Birthday. Let's find together inside Eŭropo Unio. Hopefully it will work this way.

ceigered:

Eitherway - I must agree with horsto's original post to some extent qwertz, in that I found those videos a little too daunting and confusing, being inexperienced with spoken esperanto, and so perhaps that might not help learners if they don't understand it spoken. But thank you for those links regardless

Thanks ceigered for your diplomatic help. Yes, I agree that this method focuses primarly at auditive kinesthetic learner and could not be useful or even provocative for primarly visual learners. But I like it.

Genjix:
Come on. He simply said those videos weren't worth watching in straight words. He didn't say you were bad. We can all have our own views.

Yes, I understand. And that it can hurt or be blaming the audience isn't the senders business. Yes, of course. I'm a Weich-Püppi/ dolly bird - Oh, happy Day.

(*i.e. sanies-vampire = picking inside someones wounds until ... / pointing countless again and again to someones mistakes)

qwertz:
Okay, probably an inner-German culture clash again. In detail king-individualism vs. fellowism(?). From my DE-TH viewpoint I understand your comment this way that the Korelativo Danco links I posted and Sylvain Lelarge's work are in your opinion scrap (waste). That's your opinion but telling that other people is from my viewpoint arrogant. I would never do something what makes me looking arrogant. But I also understand that the word "arrogant" not excists for king-individualists. They are the arrogance personalized.

First of all I have to say that I didn't know that qwertz seems to be personally involved in creating the video. If I knew, then your are right ceigered, I would have responded more diplomatically, or, I think, I wouldn't have responded at all.
Next point, in my opinion I didn't say that the video was bad or waste, I wrote, please correct me if I'm wrong, that it's a "waste of time to watch the video instead of simply regarding the table and reading the definitions".
Next point arrogance. You think, qwertz, it's arrogant to criticize "your work". I think it's arrogant to publicate something and to expect from everbody to like it and to not allow anybody to criticize it.
Last point, and this really makes me sad. Look what qwertz wrote: He thinks that it's "a inner german problem", "king-individualism" (western germany) against "fellowism" (eastern germany). And the "king-individualists" (we in western germany) are the "arrogance personalized".
I never wrote anything against anybody from the the eastern part of germany, and I really don't know why I should do that. I really had some nice colleagues from there and there never was a problem in working together.
Yesterday we "celebrated" the 20 years after the reunion of germany. But what is happening in germany: The people are blaming each other. The people in the west complain that they have to pay the reconstruction of the east, the people in the east complain, that they had to give up everything, they had to accept every rule and every law from the west, allthough a lot of things where better before, and a lot of people lost their jobs.
In my opinion the whole quarrel is caused from outside. The people in power don't want the population to stay together, for them the situation is perfect, they can keep the system as it is, money is disappearing, the reach people become more reach, the poor people become more poor, and the ordinary people are blaming each other.

I think everyone is taking this too personally. How about, if someone posts a link you don't like, if you just ignore it, because if they want to like this link, it's their problem and not yours?

And how about, if someone criticizes a link you posted, you just ignore their criticism, because if they don't like your link, then that's their problem not yours?

This silly link has turned into a huge debate. Unnecessarily, I think.

As food for thought, people have posted many things to this forum that I have felt are complete wastes of time, but I've never said so to these people, because someone else might enjoy those things. Similarly, if I post a link to the forum saying "this is the greatest thing that will solve your problems!", I should not be offended by comments from other posters who think that it isn't the greatest thing, and that it will make your problems worst.

I think that everyone is trying to help out other learners, but sometimes our ideas of what is "helpful" may be different or even opposite to one another. So let's just cool this thing off, ok?

horsto:
First of all I have to say that I didn't know that qwertz seems to be personally involved in creating the video. If I knew, then your are right ceigered, I would have responded more diplomatically, or, I think, I wouldn't have responded at all.

horsto:
Next point, in my opinion I didn't say that the video was bad or waste, I wrote, please correct me if I'm wrong, that it's a "waste of time to watch the video instead of simply regarding the table and reading the definitions".

horsto:
Next point arrogance. You think, qwertz, it's arrogant to criticize "your work". I think it's arrogant to publicate something and to expect from everbody to like it and to not allow anybody to criticize it.

Once again, in my opinion or - sorry from my cultural background - it doesn't matter whose work it is. The person who created something did put a lot of efforts in it. And that efforts of that person - not the result by itself first (that's another matter and is open to constructive critic) - earn respect and not "scrap/waste of time" flush away "attacks".

Btw. I was not personally involved. But that doesn't matter. Just to repeat that again I copied:...

erinja:
As food for thought, people have posted many things to this forum that I have felt are complete wastes of time, but I've never said so to these people, because someone else might enjoy those things. Similarly, if I post a link to the forum saying "this is the greatest thing that will solve your problems!", I should not be offended by comments from other posters who think that it isn't the greatest thing, and that it will make your problems worst.

qwertz:
I assume it took Sylvain Lelarge at least 2 weeks and more to develop and memorize that concept. And then someone comes and devalues that work categorizing "don't waste your time/ don't give it a trial that scrap"? That's not fair.

horsto:
Last point, and this really makes me sad. Look what qwertz wrote: He thinks that it's "a inner german problem", "king-individualism" (western germany) against "fellowism" (eastern germany). And the "king-individualists" (we in western germany) are the "arrogance personalized".

Sorry I didn't write or intented that. It may be sounds like a personal prejudice of me. But for now I live in Munich since 3 years. And I have colleagues from several parts of Germany and other countries, too. What I experienced daily that I have similar cultural backgrounds like communication "style" with mosts East-Germans of course and with most North-West-Germans. Because I live in the South-West now I have to handle some weired habbits of some locals. It's like I say "very nice weather today" and got the answer "in spain are XX degrees". Okay I understand it word by word, what is that related to what I said? In my opinion West-Germans are very individualistic driven. I can't see something bad with that as long it doesn't go to extrem level like that "king-individualism" which ignores others people excistence or handle other people like the air around. I have very big problems with that habit. And of course I can handle "fellowism" much better. And it's weired that I can handle non-German fellowism i.e. Australian one much better than West-German individualism. Even if the East-Germans also are somewhat more individualistic like i.e. the Australian one. I.e. it seems to be Whole-German nature that we are very bad with relaxed Small-Talk attitude.

horsto:
I never wrote anything against anybody from the the eastern part of germany, and I really don't know why I should do that. I really had some nice colleagues from there and there never was a problem in working together.

Simple question: How many West-Germans went to and worked in East-Germany? How many East-Germans went to Western-Germany and work there? I believe you, that you don't communicate with bad intentions. But how many West-Germans are really interested in East-German matters?

horsto:
Yesterday we "celebrated" the 20 years after the reunion of germany. But what is happening in germany: The people are blaming each other. The people in the west complain that they have to pay the reconstruction of the east, the people in the east complain, that they had to give up everything, they had to accept every rule and every law from the west, allthough a lot of things where better before, and a lot of people lost their jobs.
In my opinion the whole quarrel is caused from outside. The people in power don't want the population to stay together, for them the situation is perfect, they can keep the system as it is, money is disappearing, the reach people become more reach, the poor people become more poor, and the ordinary people are blaming each other.

I understand your and accept your wish that we should be untited. But I'm sorry, we aren't. Why not accept that we are somewhat different in mentality and start again into that European Union experiment. That's what we can experience together. We won't be capable to experience the West-German and East-German past together to find out what happend. We simply went different ways after May 8/ 1945.

I recommend the book "Typisch Ossi, typisch Wessi: Eine längst fällige Abrechnung unter Brüdern und Schwestern - Michael Jürgs und Angela Elis"

"Typical East-German (Ossi), typical West-German (Wessi): An high demanded falling due deduction between brothers and sisters."

But it's sometimes very offending to eachs others side.

erinja:
I think everyone is taking this too personally. How about, if someone posts a link you don't like, if you just ignore it, because if they want to like this link, it's their problem and not yours?

erinja:
And how about, if someone criticizes a link you posted, you just ignore their criticism, because if they don't like your link, then that's their problem not yours?

This silly link has turned into a huge debate. Unnecessarily, I think.

From your US-american position, of course. For Germans, not. We should be united, but we aren't.

erinja:
I think that everyone is trying to help out other learners, but sometimes our ideas of what is "helpful" may be different or even opposite to one another. So let's just cool this thing off, ok?

Okay, I will try.

I think everyone has gone off topic.

Yes.

Qwertz, perhaps you missed the point of my earlier message. If you wish to have a detailed discussion with Horst about his reaction to your message, you should have that discussion in personal messages, and not in this forum. Your opinions about the characters of East and West Germans are not really relevant to this thread (topic: correct use of tio and tiu)