Viestejä: 22
Kieli: English
sublimestyle (Näytä profiilli) 6. lokakuuta 2010 3.39.42
LyzTyphone (Näytä profiilli) 6. lokakuuta 2010 5.02.05
Because the motion-indicator only indicate where something is going "to", and never where something comes "from". So, think of Xn as another way of saying "al X". Since, in the second case, "ĝis" already indicates the destination, so adding -n will be redundant.
nshepperd (Näytä profiilli) 6. lokakuuta 2010 6.21.12
I know that one would use Ili falis sur la tablon to indicate that the the objects have fallen onto the table as opposed to having fallen over already on the table.
I'm unsure if you could use it the same way for falling sub the table; strictly speaking the table is not where the objects are going. I imagine something like Ili falis suben de la tablo ("they fell below from the table") instead.
ceigered (Näytä profiilli) 6. lokakuuta 2010 6.26.00
sublimestyle:I'm just a little confused on when your supposed to use the accusative of direction.Do you add the accusative ending if the preposition does not indicate motion like in the sentence "Ili falis sub la tablon." and in the sentence "Griza kato iris de la domo gxis la Strato" would you have the accusative case on "domo" or "strato" or both.If you had SUB instead of ĜIS, then "Giza kato iris de la domo sub la Straton".
The "n" more or less means "to" as Lyz has said. So "into" = "en ____-n", "under/to under" = "sub ____-n", etc.
If you mean "to a location", you can actually have "-en" as an ending, e.g. "Mi iras hejmen", but you can't have (normally, I'm sure there are cases where this can be made to work) that with recipients, e.g. people.
There are always little catches like throwing a ball to someone vs. throwing a ball at someone, but to avoid any direction messes that can be described with the verb, e.g. "Mi donis/ĵetodonis/donis ĵete la pilkon al mia amiko".
So don't overapply the accusative of direction, because that generally means there's another way to do it.
@ nshepperd:
I believe you can actually do "sub -n", because it in the sentence "La kato iras sub la tablon", you are saying "the cat goes to the underneath of the table".
Otherwise, "La kato iras sub la tablo" can mean "the cat goes (while being underneath the table)".
The "-n" to the end of "tablo" still makes sense, because it's insinuating that the motion started from outside the vicinity of the table, and is going in the direction of the vicinity of the table. The same thing for "en -n", since when you go inside something, you haven't gone to it at all - of course, this is all better demonstrated with a hollow sphere with an opening to the inside floating in space.
"suben" is really "sub-e-n" - "to underneath", an extrapolation of the preposition "sub". Because of that I'm not sure how "suben de la tablo" goes in terms of correctness, but it sounds alright.
I believe this all applies with "super" as well, but I'm not sure how it all works because you have "super", but then "supre" and "supren".
sudanglo (Näytä profiilli) 6. lokakuuta 2010 9.57.55
However, there are some doubtful cases.
Ĉu vi trovis viajn ŝlosilojn? Mi metis ilin sur la tablo (mi lasis ilin tie).
Is an 'n' really necessary in this case? The meaning is quite clear without it.
On the other hand, I would probably say 'la kato saltis sur la tablon.
Without the 'n' the meaning is different (the cat could be already on the table when it jumped, rather than jumping onto the table).
Malfru-vespere, en la trinkejoj en Sud-ameriko, fraŭlinoj ofte dancas sur la tabloj. (No 'n' in this case.)
sublimestyle (Näytä profiilli) 6. lokakuuta 2010 13.14.21
erinja (Näytä profiilli) 6. lokakuuta 2010 13.29.51
Meti and lasi will function differently when it comes to -n, in my opinion.
I would personally meti ion sur la tablon, but lasi ion sur la tablo. Meti is moving the thing in the direction of the table. Lasi is me moving away from the table, after I have put something. Lasi isn't moving in the same way as meti, in my opinion.
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super = over, above
supre = on top
sur = on, upon
So:
"La birdo estas super la domo" - the bird is somewhere above the house, perhaps perched on a tree whose branch is above the house, perhaps flying around.
"La birdo estas sur la domo" - the bird is on the house, presumably perched on the roof
"La birdo estas supre" - the bird is somewhere above where we are, generically
super and sur are prepositions, so you would expect to find a noun after them. supre is an adverb of location, so we would not expect to find a noun after it.
Genjix (Näytä profiilli) 6. lokakuuta 2010 18.02.15
la kato saltis sur la tablon = the cat jumps onto the table
la kato saltis sur la tablo = the cat is jumping (while on top of) the table
sudanglo (Näytä profiilli) 6. lokakuuta 2010 22.56.55
I would personally meti ion sur la tablonDoesn't it rather depend on the emphasis?
Are you thinking of meti as the physical act involving motion, or are you thinking it as equivalent to lok(ig)i - fari ke io estu ie?
Ŝi ridetis kun sia mano metita sur la buŝo.
Metu sur bakpapero en bakujon, kaj baku je 160°C 20 minutojn
Would you say La asocio metis reklamojn en la gazeto, or en la gazeton?
Metu ĉion preta sur la tablo, or sur la tablon?
Obviously, 'sur la tablon' is not wrong after 'meti' if you meant to talk about the motion. I was making the point that there can be some cases which are debatable.
erinja (Näytä profiilli) 7. lokakuuta 2010 1.32.51
But I did a search at tekstaro.com and meti sur la -n seems to be the accepted form, all the way back to the beginning of Esperanto. That's how it is in the Fundamento. Meti ringon sur la fingron, meti moneron en la poŝon. "La ĉerkon ili metis sur monton" "Mi metis la manon sur la tablon"
I did find one instance in the Fables of the Brothers Grimm, "[li] metis ŝtonojn sur la rando", but that sentence's non-use of -n was the exception rather than the rule.
I would comfortably say "meti reklamon en gazeton". But actually I wouldn't say that way, I'd simply say "reklami en gazeto"
It's an admittedly unscientific search, I just skimmed over it, but that one instance without -n was the only n-less usage that I was able to find easily.