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Couple of questions

by TheMartianGeek, October 22, 2010

Messages: 44

Language: English

ceigered (User's profile) December 1, 2010, 12:12:10 PM

IvoG:yey nice topic - i'll use it for my questions too lango.gif

so a simple one first - i'm doing the "Bildoj kaj demandoj" course and i came across 2 words for "with": "per" and "kun" - is there a difference between them or are they interchangable?
Per = instrumental. I cooked a cake WITH a knife, I rode my bike WITH the pedals (not WITH the helmet, since the helmet does not help the task of "riding"). Per is "with" when "with" describes the thing that was used to complete the task.

Kun = I forgot the fancy name. Basically, referring to position. E.g. I am with my friends, I have a top with green polkadots.

Thus: I rode a bike with (per) the pedals with (kun) a helmet on my head. I eat cherry pie with (kun) cream with (per) my mouth.

erinja (User's profile) December 1, 2010, 2:23:37 PM

It helps somewhat if you don't translate "per" as "with". I would translate it as "by means of". If you say an English sentence using "with", and you ask yourself, "Could I substitute "by means of" for "with"?" - if the answer is yes, then use "per". If the answer is no, then use "kun".

Example:

I cut the cake with a knife.
I cut the cake by means of a knife.
"by means of" makes sense here, so the right word is "per".

I went to the movies with a friend.
I went to the movies by means of a friend.
"by means of" doesn't make sense here, so the right word is "kun".

IvoG (User's profile) December 1, 2010, 4:15:03 PM

got it, thanks guys rideto.gif

IvoG (User's profile) December 1, 2010, 5:17:30 PM

ok, another question lango.gif

again in "Bildoj kaj demandoj" there's an example sentence "Kio okazas pri la infano?" shouldn't it be "Kion okazas pri la infanon?" since "la infano" is the object of the sentence or am i missing something? senkulpa.gif

darkweasel (User's profile) December 1, 2010, 5:21:03 PM

IvoG:ok, another question lango.gif

again in "Bildoj kaj demandoj" there's an example sentence "Kio okazas pri la infano?" shouldn't it be "Kion okazas pri la infanon?" since "la infano" is the object of the sentence or am i missing something? senkulpa.gif
No.

The subject of okazi is the thing that happens. In this case, as it's a question what's happening, it's the interrogative pronoun kio.

You do not add an accusative to the clause introduced by pri at any time. In general, the accusative is used after prepositions only in relatively few cases. (I'm not going into detail about that as I think that this would confuse you even more. okulumo.gif )

RiotNrrd (User's profile) December 1, 2010, 5:25:18 PM

Another way to think of it is that "okazi" is intransitive. This means it cannot take a direct object, which means no accusative.

ceigered (User's profile) December 2, 2010, 9:57:47 AM

RiotNrrd:Another way to think of it is that "okazi" is intransitive. This means it cannot take a direct object, which means no accusative.
Just to join in on the questioneering here, is "okazi" a verb root or a noun root? (Just got me thinking about how one can expect a definition from changing the root ending, e.g. manĝi -> manĝo and trinki -> trinko, seems to indicate that those ones go from verbs to the object of those verbs, where as with okazi I was wondering whether the intransitivity causes its expected noun form to describe the action itself).

Miland (User's profile) December 2, 2010, 11:16:00 AM

ceigered:..is "okazi" a verb root or a noun root?
Here's the entry from the Fundamental Vortaro:
okaz' avoir lieu, arriver | happen | vorfallen | случаться | zdarzać się.
okaz'o occasion | occasion | Ereigniss, Gelegenheit | случай | wypadek, zdarzenie.
okaz'a accidentel | accidental | zufällig | случайный | przypadkowy.

It looks like an intransitive verbal root, and the noun form looks like the action itself, as you say

ceigered (User's profile) December 3, 2010, 7:51:23 AM

Miland:
ceigered:..is "okazi" a verb root or a noun root?
Here's the entry from the Fundamental Vortaro:
okaz' avoir lieu, arriver | happen | vorfallen | случаться | zdarzać się.
okaz'o occasion | occasion | Ereigniss, Gelegenheit | случай | wypadek, zdarzenie.
okaz'a accidentel | accidental | zufällig | случайный | przypadkowy.

It looks like an intransitive verbal root, and the noun form looks like the action itself, as you say
Cheers, that makes things interesting... I wonder if there's an underlying pattern somewhere, since "morti"'s "morto" describes the action itself too. Well, it's probably not underlying, but anyway.

RE "Gelegenheit" I love it! "Aliehood" lango.gif

sudanglo (User's profile) December 3, 2010, 12:31:39 PM

Theoretically, Ceiger there is no difference between a root and a so-called grammatical ending and a root and another root. Roots are combined in a manner which it is felt will serve to convey the meaning.

As a matter of custom a 'manĝo' is used to mainly to convey the idea of the occasion of eating, or what is eaten at such times - so in English a 'meal' - rather than a single act of eating. But if context makes it clear that the latter is intended, then I think that it can also serve for that meaning.

Per unu sola manĝo la gigantulo konsumis la tutan kokidon.

In the case of 'trinko', this is not normally used for a specific fluid consumed. For that meaning one uses 'trinkaĵo', leaving 'trinko' for the act, so that trinketoj can be translated as 'sips' in English.

It does not do to overgeneralize about the meaning of a root plus 'gramatika finaĵo'. It is very much a question of the meaning of the root plus the meaning of 'o' 'a' 'i' etc - which Zamenhof refers to as like separate words.

Rule 11. Vortoj kunmetitaj estas formataj per simpla kunigo de la vortoj; la gramatikaj finaĵoj estas rigardataj ankaŭ kiel memstaraj vortoj.

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