Mesaĝoj: 64
Lingvo: English
erinja (Montri la profilon) 2010-oktobro-26 13:21:58
sudanglo (Montri la profilon) 2010-oktobro-26 22:22:46
That's the point relevant to this thread, not any issue about typo's
The form la Unuiĝinta Reĝlando may have some currency, but I don't think among Esperantists who actually live in the UK.
No doubt other Brits will have their say on this, but for my ears Reĝlando seems a bit comic.
erinja (Montri la profilon) 2010-oktobro-27 01:31:39
On occasion I still see Sudan referred to as "the Sudan", or Ukraine as "the Ukraine". There's no English grammatical reason to do this (sometimes there are historical reasons, however), yet you still see these forms around.
ceigered (Montri la profilon) 2010-oktobro-27 04:09:02
I think "La" is justified in "La unuiĝinta reĝlando" since we're talking about one united kingdom in particular. Note there have actually been other united kingdoms elsewhere in the world before. And I hate to be a spoilt-sport but in my mind at least "unuiĝinta reĝlando" seems to indicate a united kingdom other than "the" one we all know and love.
The Ukraine is the because Ukraine means "frontier", yes? (since Russian has "okraina" for frontier). I honestly don't hear or notice a bare version of "Ukraine" sans "the", and have only seen it really on the internet. Perhaps a regional thing. (edit: then again I do say "czechoslovakia" still in lieu of Czech Republic, so maybe I'm just outdated with my "The Ukraine").
Re Regnoj and Reĝlandoj, from what I've read "regno" means "a state run by itself, independent", where as Reĝlando means "king-dom" more or less.
Because Britain is run by a monarchy (spare most of Hibernia), "La unuiĝinta reĝlando" sounds most correct to me, since the United Kingdom is the unified thrones of Scotland and England, and it's essentially why it is all unified.
(Regardless of what those dirty anti-monarchy anarchists say
) sudanglo (Montri la profilon) 2010-oktobro-27 11:46:06
Incidentally who doesn't refer to Usono as La Unuiĝintaj Ŝtatoj or the United Nations as La Unuiĝintaj Nacioj.
If you going to drop the La from the United Kingdom then, to be consistent, you should drop the La from 'La rivero Tamizo' (the Thames) and 'La Ruĝa Maro' (the Red Sea)and 'La Dovra Markolo' (the Dover Straits) and any other place name expression where the category is explicitly mentioned.
I just don't believe any Esperantist would not say 'La urbo Bulonjo tre famas en Esperantujo ĉar tie okazis la unua Universal Kongreso'
ceigered (Montri la profilon) 2010-oktobro-27 12:48:34
sudanglo:Well you colonials can say what you like, but I'm not going to call my own country a reĝlando - even though it is a monarĥio (defined in PIV as a regno regata de monarĥo).Why not though? There doesn't seem to be any sense in avoiding "Reĝlando" if that's what your country is. The UK surely isn't held together because the hypothetical early modern presidents of Scotland and England tried to preempt the European Union
Unless it's that thing about Reĝlando sounding like "Reg(inald)-land", but with "mi penis farti", there's much bigger problems at hand than "Reginald-Land".
I quite like Reĝlando, has a nice Indo-European feel to it, as if it came from some secret PIE word "reglend". Aye, if only Zamenhof was making Esperanto with full knowledge of PIE reconstruction instead of Latin/Greek! (or at least some Sanskrit influence)
.Anyway, I'll be sticking with La Unuiĝinta Reĝlando, despite whatever controversies I don't quite get with "la" and "reĝlando" still lingering.
sudanglo (Montri la profilon) 2010-oktobro-27 22:14:08
Anyway, this little debate illustrates that Esperanto although the easiest language in the World for beginners, might yet be the hardest language of all at higher levels.
Apparently, not even the authority of PIV will convince - see the entry under Regno.
And why might it be felt that something like PIV can't be relied on.
Because often you can't be absolutely sure that the entry is not a Vortarista solution - can't be sure that it's grounded in solid usage.
And even when there are good grounds for supposing something to be well supported by usage, it may still be open to question because the expression may be felt not to be the best the language could offer, or dubious for this or that reason.
Perhaps, we don't have here (in this thread) a very good example of the difficulty of determining what to say, but not infrequently what is so easy to determine in a natural language (where established usage is King and so accessible) may require substantial research and/or cogitation for Esperanto.
EDIT: what was perfectly clear from the regno entry in PIV has been changed in NPIV. For no apparent reason they have dropped the list of examples - which included the UK
angel32163 (Montri la profilon) 2010-oktobro-27 23:20:39
Anyone know their bible? And what does it say for Kingdom of God, Kingdom of Heaven?I have an Esperanto Bible on my palm pilot, it says "La regno de la ĉielo", and "La regno de Dio"
Chainy (Montri la profilon) 2010-oktobro-27 23:45:58
sudanglo:I'm not sure that I understand the problem here. Isn't it like this? -
Apparently, not even the authority of PIV will convince - see the entry under Regno.
Great Britain = Britujo/Britio (which includes England, Scotland and Wales)
The United Kingdom = La Unuiĝinta Reĝlando (which is Britujo along with Nord-Irlando)
Britaj Insuloj = British Isles. (Britujo and Irlando)
According to Wells 'regno' means 'state, realm or kingdom'. But, I believe 'kingdom' is meant here in the sense of 'realm'. For example, you could say the 'kingdom of dreams', where we are clearly not talking about a land ruled by a king. So that would be 'la regno de revoj'.
I don't know whether 'la' should officially be used in 'La Unuiĝinta Reĝlando', but it seems to make sense to do so!
I've noticed that Americans like to refer to people being from 'The UK', although British people don't use this so much themselves. They'd probably just say one of their respective countries, or perhaps 'Britain'. So, I suppose 'Britujo/Britio' is always going to be the most popular version. 'La Unuiĝinta Reĝlando' sounds a bit over the top, and there's no nice way of shortening it. Or maybe the American Esperantists will now insist upon 'La U-Ro'?
Chainy (Montri la profilon) 2010-oktobro-27 23:51:41