Meldinger: 96
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custinne (Å vise profilen) 2010 11 26 20:22:23
witeowl:What I find also interesting in that kind of petition (and as a quite new Esperantist it's also the first one that I signed) is that it could clearly indicate that there is no such thing as millions and millions of Eo speakers.
When I explain that the estimate is between 200,000 and 8 million, with the most reliable estimate being around 2 million, (...)
If I believed that there were fewer than 200,000 speakers, I don't know that I would have undertaken learning the language despite my high level of idealism.
(...)
However, if we can swat away enough arguments against the language, then people at least may run out of reasons to maintain their derision.
I like idealists like you Witeowl, but I am afraid that you won't find in this petition the propaganda weapon you're looking for.
I think esperantists - and especially the ones who want to make some propaganda for the language - should face the fact that Eo is only spoken by a very small number of people.
witeowl (Å vise profilen) 2010 11 26 20:40:54
custinne:I like idealists like you Witeowl, but I am afraid that you won't find in this petition the propaganda weapon you're looking for.Probably true, but as an idealist, I can't give up hoping.
(And, ew, "propaganda"? Surely there is a word with a similar denotation without the awful connotations? How about just "promotion"? Or do you really believe that information used for the promotion of Esperanto is propaganda?
) custinne (Å vise profilen) 2010 11 26 21:32:24
witeowl:Well, I don't see anything wrong with propaganda, there can be good one, I think... but let's talk of promotion if you prefer.
"propaganda"? Surely there is a word with a similar denotation without the awful connotations? How about just "promotion"? Or do you really believe that information used for the promotion of Esperanto is propaganda?
(But beware of not using false information -like wrong number of Eo speakers - when you're promoting, otherwise some people could say that you're making propaganda, in a bad sense of the word).
qwertz (Å vise profilen) 2010 11 26 22:22:09
witeowl:It's just about that there were some idealists who kabeicustinne:I like idealists like you Witeowl, but I am afraid that you won't find in this petition the propaganda weapon you're looking for.Probably true, but as an idealist, I can't give up hoping.
witeowl:Maybe it's a kind of paradigm discussion. Somebody I know and whom around XX (two-digits) people trust this way since some years, that they come to an European E-o renkontiĝo organized by this person, told me regarding that "E-o movado" matter: "The onliest things what still is moving (points to "movado") are the door handles". Being part of an "movement" doesn't seems to be attractive to at least European Youth. Memberships of E-o organizations are decreasing and idealists of that E-o organizations seems to be somewhat at loss at this situation. So, I personally see some need of paradigma change if E-o should get some more attractive to young (=not mandatory by age, but rather, too, by changing mind) party people. Party people doesn't mean redneck people btw. Some prominent excample for that E-o paradigma change in Western-/Middle Europe could be the history of IS and the relaunch of JES. Until now there are 260 people registered who will come to the next JES in Germany. That's quite good but could be more. So how to attract more people coming? If someone would take a look at the FESTO (204 participants) and JES (260 participants) then it could be outstanding that music, party and having fun is a very strong part of that program lists and not any "movado propagando". So, an strong E-o promotion could be done via E-o music which is mostly produced professionally by Vinilkosmo in France. Maybe and hopefully, the www.filmoj.net evalutes more stronger in the future especially at the dublado field. Who knows. But music and subtiteled movies are an entertainment party thing and definitely not "movado kongreso" styled. Just my point of view to this.
(And, ew, "propaganda"? Surely there is a word with a similar denotation without the awful connotations? How about just "promotion"? Or do you really believe that information used for the promotion of Esperanto is propaganda?
RiotNrrd (Å vise profilen) 2010 11 26 23:41:58
My main reason, I guess, is because it's another number that's going to be associated with Esperanto, and (sorry, idealists) it's going to be a pathetic number. I would be surprised if it made it past 5000 signers. Really surprised. There's a huge number of Esperantists that will never even hear of this petition. There's a ton, like erinja, who aren't going to bother. Petitions like this seem to crop up once a year or so, and after you've signed a few you start to not care that much anymore. Anyway, it's going to be a pitifully small number, but it's going to be associated with Esperanto, so I figure I can do my part to at least make it one entry less pitiful. But if it had taken longer than the minute it took, I wouldn't have bothered, either.
Alciona (Å vise profilen) 2010 11 27 00:28:07
The petition won't challenge existing estimates of Esperantists unless it gets over 800,000 unique signatures. The only concrete data this petition could offer would be 'x number of anonymous online people claimed to speak Esperanto'. Granted, it's something you can mention at dinner parties, but you can't extrapolate it to get an idea of how many Esperantists there really are in the world.
All that said, I signed for the hell of it. Even if it's just to be another number cited at dinner parties.
SilverAu (Å vise profilen) 2010 11 27 01:37:24
erinja (Å vise profilen) 2010 11 27 03:13:19
It's true, RiotNrrd, I used to sign these things. And then I gave up.
Regarding memberships in the worldwide Esperanto movement, I do not think that it reflects interest in Esperanto or even in the idea of a "movado". People join organizations much less than they used to. They can engage in their hobbies online or informally without joining an official club. In the past, if you wanted to "participate in Esperanto" you had no choice but to join a club or association, otherwise you couldn't meet anyone who spoke it. Now we have the internet and we don't need to use clubs to reach other Esperantists or to hear about events.
I attended an interesting talk by Humphery Tonkin where he discussed this issue, at last summer's US national Esperanto convention. He basically said that the era where people joined clubs and paid dues to participate in their activities is dead and gone, and that we in the Esperanto community need to find a new paradigm to work off of, to keep events funded and to perform some of the functions that our clubs and associations used to perform. Because people simply aren't interested in paying dues to join a club. What benefit do they get, beyond receiving a magazine or newsletter that they probably don't even care about?
ceigered (Å vise profilen) 2010 11 27 03:51:34
qwertz:So what statistical counting is doing to enrich E-o culture?Culture means nothing if it is promoted as the be-all and end-all of life, and takes priority away from all other things, and becomes exclusive of things like surveys because they aren't an obvious culture form.
Organisational things mean nothing if they are promoted as the be-all and end-all of life too, as then we're just machines.
Both should be in perfect harmony, and there should be no division. Organisational activities should be a form of culture, and people should be happy doing them rather than being forced to fit in a certain way like the current business world, and cultural things should be seen as being part of the order and organisations we humans have created for ourselves, rather than saying "fun and games can only happen OUTSIDE of work" etc.
Furthermore, a survey is just a fun little communication device used to find new information, whether complete or incomplete. Information is power, and should be more important than water or air to a being that claims intelligence. It can be both a form of "work", an organisational device, or a eudemonic cultural activity, a way of EOists keeping track of our numbers and our "herd", like how Elephants vocalise to call in outliers in the herd, or how my mother yells at my siblings to get them to return to her as opposed to harassing poor pigdogs.
ceigered (Å vise profilen) 2010 11 27 04:06:35
qwertz:I full agree with that. In my opinion it doesn't make any sense to make a moskito an elephant. I can live with Esperanto as an minority language with worldwide scattered speaker community.C'mon, it's only just 5 minutes of non-effort, and you're not even doing the tallying up part
Otherwise, it could be said that you're the one turning the mosquito into an elephant by making it such a big deal, 'miko