witeowl: I can think of nothing more enriching than additional speakers.

[/quote]Yes, I agree. But first people need a strong motivation to start and remain learning a foreign language. An very strong motivation. Including learning Esperanto. Especially to reach the basic vocabulary level. I'm not a language freak. I only have one (immediate?) foreign language expertise (English). It's quite interesting to meet lot's of language freak people at E-o - ehm - parties/festojn. (Festo, festo, festo!)

qwertz:
You're lucky being an English native and don't have to soldier on through learning a language which in my opinion often just learned for career purposes. Please travel through the world and see what i.e. music culture, scientifical information etc. from English native countries in English language spread and motivate/enforce people to learn English. After that pain of having to learn a bridge language the next language will be choosen to full own willings (=personal adoptive language pdf file.).

witeowl:
I don't get your point here. Yes, I grew up speaking English. (Well, after the first five years of my life in which I only spoke German as my family emigrated from Germany shortly before my birth.) True, I don't have to learn another language, which is a shame and part of my motivation for learning Esperanto. (I could go back and complete my studies of German or Spanish, but I choose Eperanto as being not only the most flexible but the language which carries the best political impact.)

witeowl:
But, again, I don't understand what you are trying to say here. Are you telling me that people shouldn't be encouraged to learn Esperanto?

qwertz:They are free to do so. I assume you solely self-centered know the definition who got the honor to be an "Esperantist" and who an "Fake-Esperantist".

witeowl: Please explain what you are saying here. I know that English is not your first language, so perhaps it would be best to move this discussion into one of the Esperanto forums so that we are both working in an auxiliary language. At this time, I'm a bit offended (and perplexed) at being called self-centered, and I'm hoping that that was not your intention.

Hhm, I took that "self-centered" from that thread. Mustelvulpo mentioned it there. It was not my intention to blame you with categorizing "self-centered". I thought "self-centered" has some neutral sense. I could use that "self-centered" word in German, too = (de: selbst-zentriert). Until now I never used it in German language. But I heard it first from Mustelvulpo who has an "US" country (English native) lernu.net avatar marker. So, hhm, in result "self-centered" probably means the same like the common German word "engstirnig" what could be "funnel-thinking" or better the opposite of "open mindness".

I repeat: I did not want blame you with "self-centered". I thought that it is a neutral word in English.

witeowl:
I definitely don't understand your point about Esperantists and Fake-Esperantists. I wouldn't even think that there is such a thing... Either you are learning or speaking Esperanto or you are not. How or why would someone "fake" this? Perhaps you misunderstood my use of "would-be-Esperantist"? This phrase was meant to refer to people who would be willing to and/or interested in learning the language if they had enough reason.

afiksoj. Hhm, I did an non-proper comment because I mainly had "way of thinking" for that "-ist-" suffix in mind. I remember a discussion at en.lernu.net forum where people told how they would call themselves. I wouldn't categories myself being an "Esperantist(o)" due to this "-ist-". I would categories myself an "aktivulo" and no term which would put me in the field of an flag waving/swinging E-o movado membro.

witeowl:
If it is easier for you, please feel free to clarify in German the parts that I don't understand. My relatives can surely fill in any gaps left by my insufficient skill in the German language.

Thanks for that but I see practicing an foreign language as an kind of intellectual challenge. Okay sometimes I'm to tired to take the challenge. And I'm more at the English en.lernu.net forum than the eo.lernu.net one. I should change that. Or better I should read more. An (hardware) E-book reader would be a nice Christmas present to myself. Hhm.

Genjix:Esperanto speakers should stop recruiting and concentrate on generating lots of cool exclusive Esperanto content like movies, books, games, ... It does get a bit boring hearing people hacking out grammar and how to promote Esperanto ALL THE TIME!

Excactly/Genau.

qwertz:Hhm, I did an non-proper comment because I mainly had "way of thinking" for that "-ist-" suffix in mind.

Ah, yes, I have also heard of people referring to the "ist" suffix as giving a militant, activist meaning. I simply mean it in the hobby/speaker meaning. I find it too tedious to say "speaker/learner of Esperanto", so I rely on "Esperantist". I would do well to remember the connotations some bring to the table. Perhaps I should start saying Esperantulo?

I also shy away from the flag-waving movement, similar to how I love hiking with the Sierra Club, but could care less about its activism and politics.

qwertz:It was not my intention to blame you with categorizing "self-centered". I thought "self-centered" has some neutral sense. ... So, hhm, in result "self-centered" probably means the same like the common German word "engstirnig" what could be "funnel-thinking" or better the opposite of "open mindness".

No worries. However, I don't want to leave you with an incorrect working definition of "self-centered". It does go beyond being "closed minded". I would consider someone to be self-centered when s/he believes that the world revolves around him/herself, and that anything s/he does is purely done in self-interest.

I am beginning to find the thesaurus to be a valuable tool in finding a much deeper meaning of words than a mere dictionary provides, so you may wish to look here: thesaurus - self-centered. When you look at the phrase's synonyms, you will see why most people would take offense at the word.

Pacon!

I believe that qwertz is overreacting in not wanting to use the -ist- suffix.

Unlike in other languages, -ist- in Esperanto adheres fairly strictly to the meaning of a serious hobby or a habitual occupation.

According to PMEG, IST = Persono kiu ofte okupiĝas pri io (eble profesie) [A person who is often occupied with something (maybe professionally)]

Therefore PMEG specifically defines "Esperantisto" as "A person who knows and uses Esperanto", which certainly applies to qwertz.

Therefore if qwertz is active in the Esperanto movement, he would most certainly qualify as an "Esperantisto". If he happens to speak Esperanto but is in no way involved with the Esperanto movement or community and never uses the language, he would perhaps instead use the term "esperanto-parolanto" (someone capable of speaking the language who doesn't necessarily use it).

Certainly no-one is saying that a "biciklisto" is a militant trying to force the whole world to use bicycles instead of other vehicles! That would be absurd; a biciklisto is simply a person who enjoys riding a bicycle, the same way that a ŝakludisto is a person who plays chess as a serious hobby, and an Esperantisto is a person who spends a lot of time with Esperanto.

The word "Esperantulo" is without merit in my opinion. It would be like saying "An Esperanto person" the same way that a "klerulo" is an educated person.

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A note on "self-centered", for qwertz - you mentioned that you wanted to say "self-centered" in a neutral sense, as the opposite of "open mindedness". Therefore if you say that a person is "the opposite of open-minded", that means that you think that they are closed-minded, and in English, this is an insult. I believe you when you say that you didn't mean to offend, but I thought it was important to explain this to you, so that you don't cause offense in the future (unintentionally).

For the record I don't think there is a polite way and neutral to say in English that someone is "self-centered". It comes out sounding insulting in every variation.

erinja:The word "Esperantulo" is without merit in my opinion. It would be like saying "An Esperanto person" the same way that a "klerulo" is an educated person.

Well, I was hoping that "Esperantulo" would translate more to "Esperanto dude" (in the Californian sense of the word dude). If it won't do that, then there's no point.

In case the dead horse has not been sufficiently beaten, my mother, by way of my father, came with what they feel is the closest German translation for self-centered: "egozentrisch".

Personally, I use "ulo" and "isto" quite complimentary, depending on what I'm emphasising, etc.

For example, everyone associated with EO can be called an Esperantulo. E.g. "Hey there's that EO dude!".
Some can be called an Esperantisto. E.g. "Dr. Ludwig Eschenberchagogagoch, prominent Esperantist,..."

So for me it's not really that hard to randomly choose between ulo and isto, as long as the person is somewhere on the spectrum. And that's not bringing in uzanto and a whole bunch of other nouns either.

===
671 Esperantistoj, as of last check.
It's progressing at roughly 50-100 peop's a day

When I first decided to study a second language, I made myself three ground rules.

1) Had to sound cool
2) Had to have a strong speaker base
3) Had to be easy to learn

Now if a study hadn't been carried out previously by some good professor, and pointed out perhaps that 2 million people know Esperanto then I wouldn't have even bothered learning it. See a lot of older Esperantists hold the ideas of the original movement, while a lot of younger Esperantists (at least the ones I know) don't give to hoots about that crap (we a sympathetic, however its not our life) - We just like the language itself – for what it is. I would have learnt Volapuk if I knew it had more speakers, and personally I really like the look of it to - but It doesn’t so that is why I choose Esperanto instead - statistics people, very important in this day and age, why do you think companies pay obscene amounts to generate them. So even if you don’t support the pention, what harm can come from signing it? Obviously so far there are about 670 Esperantist who are interested in the numbers of speakers – because they signed it. So are you really going to not supply your 1 number just out of some silly ideal of wanting to stay invisible? I would also love to be able to direct possible new members to this website and be able to show them all the signatures from all over the world, and say “See there are thousands from China, Brazil ect, ect ….” I’ve become a regular at Esperanto meetings in Sydney and sometimes feel a little out of place because I am usually the only person under the age of 30-40 in the room. Esperanto is aging here, and unless we change our recruitment methods and try something new we will always remain a small fringe group that sometimes appears in the odd spot columns of the local newspaper.