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-u problems

by bagatelo, December 6, 2010

Messages: 40

Language: English

erinja (User's profile) December 13, 2010, 2:51:09 PM

Unfortunately the subjunctive appears to be falling out of use in English.

I can't count the times when I see, instead of the correct "Take care that you be here", a subjuctive-free version, "Take care that you are here".

acdibble (User's profile) December 14, 2010, 12:42:20 AM

I die a little on the inside when I hear, "If I was you...".

RiotNrrd (User's profile) December 14, 2010, 2:55:24 AM

If I was you, I'd get used to it...

rideto.gif

ceigered (User's profile) December 14, 2010, 3:51:05 AM

Speaking of "If I was you" and "Take care that you are here (on time etc)", they're no longer incorrect really. The subjunctive in such senses is just as archaic as case markers and adding ge/y/a to the front of a past participle.

As far as modern English is concerned, the subjunctive is dead with only its remains scattered across the language, so there's no need to feel bad on behalf of those who don't use it, since they've no obligation to do so. Similarly though, I'd challenge those who think that those who do stress the subjunctive etc in their own speech are "keeping the language tied back", since it's not like their is no trace of the subjunctive at all.

Overall, I think people should just chill about it. When you think about it, "I was you" vs. "I were you", neither is actually more correct, since they can both be seen as alternate versions of the exact same word in the exact same case. The -r from the North Germanic, and the -s from the West Germanic. Neither is actually more worthy of being a subjunctive since there is really no more trace of the true subjunctive case from Indo-European, unlike some other languages lango.gif

yugary (User's profile) December 14, 2010, 6:38:44 AM

The death of the subjunctive in English (at least, in North American English) has been grossly exaggerated. It's still quite common in America to say such things as "It's extremely important that you be on time" rather than "It's extremely important that you are on time" (which means something different, anyway). I've noticed that many Englishmen do seem to use the indicative rather than the subjunctive in such cases, and I find it jarring or sometimes downright misleading.

ceigered (User's profile) December 14, 2010, 8:11:47 AM

I honestly cannot perceive a difference between "It's important that you be on time" and "It's important you're on time" in their meanings. I mean, I know the morphological differences etc, but the resulting meaning is the same to me.

It must be a North American thing/Formalulaĵo, since everytime I run the following two lines in my head phonetically (e.g. how I'd expect to hear it), the latter with "you're" sounds "better" (from the viewpoint of what I expect to hear and what feels most natural):
/ɪts im'po:tənt ðæt jʉ: bɨi ɔn tɑem/
/ɪʔs im'po:ʔnʔ ðæʔ jo'ɹʷon tɑem/
(as you can see, I can only bring myself to write "be" (subj.) with clear pronunciation, as if spoken by someone of formal upbringing in society, e.g. above even politician level).

vejktoro (User's profile) December 14, 2010, 8:54:54 AM

Funny, for me it's 'be' hands down.
I would never say 'you`re' in that sentence.

'If I was you' sounds very awkward to me as well. It sounds unnatural and wrong and kinda past tense somehow, whereas 'If I were you...'
is general, without any particular tense.

Roberto12 (User's profile) December 14, 2010, 11:04:11 AM

RiotNrrd:If I was you, I'd get used to it...

rideto.gif
+1

sudanglo (User's profile) December 14, 2010, 11:52:08 AM

Ceiger, if you change 'important' to 'surprising', I think this reveals the difference in meaning.

I presume you would never say 'it's surprising that you be on time', since one would not use 'surprising' for exhortation. With this word the indicative is appropriate. You would be commenting on the fact of the punctuality.

With 'important' it is theoretically possibly either to express a piece of advice (that you be) or to express an opinion after the fact (that you are).

Though in the latter case, it would be more natural for a past to be used (It's important that you were not late).

Estas grave ke vi alvenis ĝustatempe. Estas konsilinde ke vi ne alvenu malfrue.

ceigered (User's profile) December 14, 2010, 12:12:13 PM

I believe you've misunderstood me there Sudanglo. I'm perfectly aware of the difference in "it's suprising that you're on time" and "it's important that you be on time", but:

"It's important that you're on time" is still in the subjunctive to me, the meaning hasn't changed from "It's important that you be on time", only the words doing it.

Thus, to my mind, the subjunctive mood no longer needs to be represented. It does no register a need to explicitly represent the subjunctive with a word of its own (be), and the forms of the subjunctive and indicative have been fused.

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