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od bagatelo, 06. december 2010

Sporočila: 40

Jezik: English

erinja (Prikaži profil) 14. december 2010 14:34:03

Honestly I think English speakers are selling themselves short if they ignore the subjunctive.

It adds the possibility for more shades of meaning. And if you ignore the subjunctive entirely, it makes it harder to learn how to use it correctly in the numerous languages that make extensive use of it (all Romance languages, not to mention Esperanto)

The subjunctive was one of the hardest things for me in learning Italian and it's partially because I wasn't aware of how it worked in English.

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Some grammatical forms are markedly different between the US and the UK. I don't know that I'd include the subjunctive among them. However, "got" versus "gotten"....!

bagatelo (Prikaži profil) 14. december 2010 14:40:59

I agree about the regrettable fading away of the subjunctive in English: an impoverishment of expression.

got/gotten: 'gotten' was still used in the West of Scotland where I was brought up. e.g. "He's gone and gotten himself a broken leg at the football." JFWIW

Chainy (Prikaži profil) 14. december 2010 15:26:46

Maybe I was a bit hasty here - I've thinking about this one a bit, and maybe I do in fact use the subjunctive sometimes. It's just that I hadn't been aware of that particular name for it. And in many forms, it's easy not to realise that you are actually using it as it appears to be the same as the standard conjugation. Only when you say something like 'that he be' does it stand out! And, as I've mentioned, I think it's common to use 'should' in those particular cases...

So, I'll delete my comment about only old grannies using the subjunctive! ridulo.gif Sorry, I get a little confused every so often as I've spent so much time away from other native speakers of English! I think I need to go back home to England for a while to freshen up my English! And I claim to be a teacher of English... ridulo.gif

Chainy (Prikaži profil) 14. december 2010 15:59:26

A lot of people use 'should' as an alternative, to get across the same meaning as the subjunctive that has been mentioned here.

For example:

I demanded that he do that = I demanded that he should do that.

I think it's particularly tempting to use the 'should' option to avoid odd sounding forms such as 'that he be'... (odd due to their infrequent use).

erinja (Prikaži profil) 14. december 2010 16:48:01

I never heard anyone use "should" in this context, honestly, not ever. It must be because I am American. I just read on a website for learners of English that this "should" form is sometimes seen in the UK. The "should" form sounds very strange to my ear. I wonder how common it is even in the UK; I shall have to listen more attentively to British TV, to see if I notice its use.

I always hear the form of "I demanded that he do that". "I asked that she be here on time, and she is late!" I have never heard "I asked that she should be here on time"

Subjunctive forms are not obvious in English, since they are the infinitive minus "to" [except in the past tense subjunctive of "to be", which is of course "were"].

This is linked to my long-standing complaint that grammar isn't taught in most schools. If grammar were taught, people would be more aware of why we say things the way we do. It would eliminate "It sounds wrong/right" as a method of determining whether a sentence is correct or not.

sudanglo (Prikaži profil) 14. december 2010 20:05:40

Maybe not 'should' in your examples Erinja, but would you not say 'he stressed that we should not be late'; 'he impressed on us that we should not mention the war'; I cannot emphasize too strongly that you should be careful not to make him angry'?

Examples, where in Esperanto you perhaps might use the u-form.

acdibble (Prikaži profil) 14. december 2010 21:11:37

Subjunctive isn't always the infinitive without "to".

I was there. vs. Were I there...

I had the money. vs. If I had the money...

But there are some instances that will take a lot of time, I believe, before the subjunctive word is replaced.

"Be that as it may..."

I don't believe that the subjunctive is dying, but rather that the words are being replaced. Until it is rule that you have to say, "If I was you...", I will continue to use the correct subjunctive word.

erinja (Prikaži profil) 14. december 2010 21:35:41

acdibble, you'll note that in my original posting, I mentioned that the past tense subjunctive of "to be" is the exception to this rule.

"If I had the money" is a conditional, not subjunctive. Subjunctive of "to have" is still "have". "I asked that he have mercy on me"

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Sudanglo, in my opinion, the examples you give with "should" are not subjunctive at all, but they are straightforward uses of "should" as a modal verb. Should and the subjunctive are not interchangeable as far as meaning, but in some dialects (UK English is evidently one of them) the word "should" gets used instead of a subjunctive form. That isn't to say, however, that "should" *is* a subjunctive form.

I see a grammatical difference between "He stressed that we should not mention the war" and "He asked that we not mention the war".

The use of "should" is important in the first version. This is "should" used as an auxiliary verb to show the "ideal behaviour". It isn't a real subjunctive in my opinion, because we couldn't do away with "should". ("He stressed that we not mention the war" - this doesn't make sense to me. Subjunctive expresses a hope or a desire, and "to stress" doesn't really fall into these categories).

A subjunctive expresses hope, contingency, possibility, etc. A clause with a subjunctive verb is often set off with "that". "It is important me *that* you come", for example.

Grammatical tidbit - the would "should" comes from the old English word "sculan" [to owe; past tense form "sceolde"]. I am pretty sure that sculan comes from the same root as the modern German word "schulden" [to owe], which was almost certainly the root of our Esperanto word ŝuldi [to owe].

ceigered (Prikaži profil) 15. december 2010 04:39:21

That grammatical tidbit was actually very interesting lango.gif

RE:
"I see a grammatical difference between "He stressed that we should not mention the war" and "He asked that we not mention the war"."

The only difference I see (as a speaker, not looking at the situation objectively) is that the first one looks a bit polite and the second one looks like it's slimming down for summer so it fits in its new swimsuit.

(Off topic slightly, but I'd actually be more inclined to say "he stressed to us that we don't mention the war" - once again, that sticky indicative form merging with the subjunctive role).

And once again, I know you subjunktivuloj won't like this, but with the example "I asked that she should be here on time", it doesn't seem wrong to render it "I asked her that she's here on time".

Don't know if it's a regional thing, but I'm sure in Australian English, at least colloquially, it's normal for the indicative to be used in the subjunctive mood alongside the subjunctive.

After all, English is becoming increasingly more analytical (as have the Celtic languages, so it may be a Sprachbund thing), and what was originally indicated by tense forms of verbs and noun cases is now indicated by set phrases/words-turned-into-particles (like Acdibble's example, "Be that as it may..." and "were" ("were I eating a hamburger, I'd be happy, but ...." etc)).

Also, it's quite interesting to see once again that US English is quite conservative in some ways, it just never sits right in my head to imagine a cowboy quoting shakespeare lango.gif

bagatelo (Prikaži profil) 15. december 2010 15:25:34

"He asked that we not mention the war."

Methinks there are echoes of Basil Fawlty hereabouts. okulumo.gif

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