-u problems
글쓴이: bagatelo, 2010년 12월 6일
글: 40
언어: English
erinja (프로필 보기) 2010년 12월 15일 오후 4:21:36
It makes sense, considering that our English broke off earlier from the motherland, than Australian English.
I think that media consumption makes a difference at all. Very little in the way of foreign television ever makes it to the US (except on the few public networks, not watched by many people), since we have so much domestic production. In most cases if there's an excellent foreign program, it is remade (badly) for the US market rather than simply showing the foreign show. It's a shame since these programs are originally in English! As a result most Americans have little exposure to English as it is spoken by the rest of the English-speaking world.
I have seen plenty of Australian and American programs on British TV and I am assuming that plenty of British and American programs make it to Australia as well. Therefore Brits and Aussies are certainly much more "aware" of our English than we are of theirs.
sudanglo (프로필 보기) 2010년 12월 15일 오후 11:18:28
Li emfazis ke ni ne estu malfruaj
and
Li emfazis ke ni devus/devas esti akurataj.
So the issue becomes, is 'he stressed that we should not be late' just one of these meanings or ambiguous - capable of being interpreted in different ways.
orthohawk (프로필 보기) 2010년 12월 16일 오후 4:50:39
erinja:acdibble, you'll note that in my original posting, I mentioned that the past tense subjunctive of "to be" is the exception to this rule.the PAST subjunctive of "to have" is "had." To whit: If I had the money, I'd go to England = Se mi havus la monon (sed mi NE havas gxin), mi irus al Anglujo.
"If I had the money" is a conditional, not subjunctive. Subjunctive of "to have" is still "have". "I asked that he have mercy on me"
Dimo, Grammar Geek.
tommjames (프로필 보기) 2010년 12월 16일 오후 5:15:04
erinja:"If I had the money" is a conditional, not subjunctive.Subjunctive and conditional are not necessarily mutually exclusive moods, you sometimes see the subjunctive in counter factual conditionals that express a desire for something to have happened (which didn't). An example in addition to the one by orthohawk, from the Wikipeda article: "If he had studied for his test, he wouldn't be in so much trouble".
erinja (프로필 보기) 2010년 12월 16일 오후 6:59:26
The subjunctive and conditional are related in my opinion, but require different wording. Of course it is complicated in English by the fact that "had" can be a simple past tense, a conditional, or a subjunctive.
A plain if-then statement - conditional, not subjunctive. If he had studied, he wouldn't be in trouble. According to websites for learners of English, this is a conditional statement referring to a condition that could not possibly be fulfilled, because it happened in the past. These kind of past-tense conditionals are referring to the way that things would have been different in the past, if only things had happened differently.
The subjunctive version of this would be "Had he studied for his test, he wouldn't be in trouble".
Or another related subjunctive version, "Would that he had studied for his test!"
tommjames (프로필 보기) 2010년 12월 16일 오후 7:10:36
erinja:"If he had studied for his test, he wouldn't be in trouble" - this is a straight-off conditional in my book, not a subjunctive.Certainly a conditional, though I'm not sure why you say it can't also be in the subjunctive mood. A quick Googling around reveals several examples of this, here, here, and here.
The last page has a paragraph which addresses your closing comments, with respect to "Had he studied...":
However, not all dependent clauses that express possibility, necessity, and contingency begin with the subordinating conjunction if. For example, the boy not failing the test was contingent on his studying as expressed in the sentence Had the boy been studying as he said, he would not have failed the test. The noun clause Had the boy been studying as he said is a subordinate clause that contains the subjunctive mood. This noun clause could also be written as If the boy had been studying as he said with an if introducing the clause. However, in English, the if of the if clause can be removed so long as the first auxiliary verb switches places with the subject. Therefore, the if clause If the driveway were being resealed could also be written as Were the driveway being resealed without eliminating the subjunctive mood. Read more: http://www.brighthub.com/education/languages/artic...This matches my own understanding of the situation. If this is wrong I'd appreciate references to other resources that see things differently, if possible.
Miland (프로필 보기) 2010년 12월 16일 오후 8:44:27
jrhowa:How would I say something like "I should not have done that" ..?That's a hard one, because there's no exact equivalent to "should have" in Esperanto. However, I would suggest Mi devintus ne fari tion. You may find the discussion in a past thread helpful.
sudanglo (프로필 보기) 2010년 12월 17일 오전 12:30:40
And as Miland says, also by 'mi devintus ne fari tion' which seems to parallel the structure also used in French.
But if the meaning is that in your shoes I would have acted differently - ie 'I would not have done that', though not all English speakers may agree that should is possible here - then the translation is 'mi ne estus farinta tion'.
If the emphasis is on the act being against your beliefs, religion, moral duty, values etc then perhaps 'mi devus ne esti farinta tion'.
For me the phrase 'mi ne estus devinta fari tion' seems to mean 'I would not have had to do that', but in any case it seems to stress that the devo was experienced in the past, rather than a reflection of what you currently feel.
If somebody gives you a present and you wish to express the idea that it wasn't necessary, but you appreciate that - Oh, you shouldn't have - then I might be tempted to say 'Vi tute ne devis, tamen ...' .