Messages: 60
Language: English
qwertz (User's profile) December 19, 2010, 3:55:33 PM
Roberto12:Who is talking about a perfect world? And why not give it a try? Is there any evidence that it would not work with current Internet facilities? In my opinion that's what Open Source community, Pirate Party and Assange try to target. And Europe's EU-experiment and circumstances are vibrant changing. Means this is proper ground to experiment with that. In my opinion most of all will change or get an still-function check.horsto:Why should this kind of working together not work in other areas?(If I can just dip in again.)
The open-source situation is pleasing, but the reason such practices can't spread throughout other spheres is because of the usual factors of power, status, and money. No system, no matter how cleverly designed, can overcome the negative aspects of the human condition. It is because of the human condition that we'll never live in a perfect world.
rano (User's profile) December 19, 2010, 4:54:36 PM
erinja:It will never happen that everyone will work together.Right!
If that could happen, then a true communist ideal would also work.
But wikileaks is not that idealistic.
The idear is that transparency force you to work well, because otherwise you would loose your job.
ideologies always looks inpossible, but they change the world a little bit.
capitalism made the society a little bit more efficient, but it didnt worked in its entirety!
socialism made the world a little bit more social, but it didnt woked in its entirety!
But today the socialists and the capitalsts are meeting in parlaments and work out together our system. and it is/was better than anytime before.
The "internet ideologie" will also not work in its entirety, but parts of it already works. This ideologie is a mix of liberalism/anarchie and collectivism.
We need this diferent ideologies, because they keep us discussing.
rusto (User's profile) December 19, 2010, 6:32:13 PM
rano:On this I must disagree. Capitalism is far from efficient. It requires entire structures be erected simply to keep it inefficient. Worst of all, it requires humans themselves become machines working much more than would be required in an efficient system. The moment equilibrium is reached in a capitalistic model, it collapses.
capitalism made the society a little bit more efficient, but it didnt worked in its entirety!
And, while I do not believe it will result in Utopia, the anarcho-communistic model, or other forms of libertarian socialism for that matter, have a lot to offer. They would not bring about Utopia, but could lead to a situation where we are as close as possible to one. For this I think there is much we can learn from the CNT-FAI in Anarchist Catalonia. While their system was not ideal -arguably it could not achieve ideal due to the fact it occurred during a rather bloody civil war- it does offer us a wonderful example of what can be achieved. Under the CNT-FAI food production in creased to the point of being doubled for some produce. Public works were setup including a transit system, telephone system, and a militia competent enough to earn the respect even of those opposed to it. In the end, it took interference from a global superpower- the USSR- to do in Anarchist Catalonia.
It's an interesting point in history if any of you have not researched it. George Orwell has some interesting writings on it, particularly the Barcelona May Days in which he was involved.
rano (User's profile) December 20, 2010, 6:21:31 PM
all i wanted to say is that ideologies and idealism maybe are not working but they are good for our society (except of fundamental ideologies)
"ideals are lighthouses, not harbors"
Wilhelm (User's profile) December 23, 2010, 12:16:10 AM
ceigered:Seriously? The fact that US Apache pilots shot down journos and weren't disciplined over it seems pretty bad to me, and I certainly heard nothing of it until Wikileaks came out with it.Why should they be disciplined? They were just following orders.
It's not the apples that are bad, it's the whole barrel that's rotten.
Counter-Insurgency wars are nothing like the wars of WWI & WWII. There are no real battles, most of the time troops just see their buddies being killed by an unseen enemy using IED's, snipers, suicide attacks, whatever. They rarely get a face to face battle with the "enemy". The occupied population essentially becomes the target of all the built up rage of soldiers, who are put into these situations. You can't blame the soldiers for the launching of an illegal invasion. They should never have been put in these situations in the first place. These "wars" are inherently brutal and dehumanizing.
See below: Philip Zimbardo (Stanford Prison Experiment) the first video deals with Abu Graib and more.
1. The Lucifer Effect: Understanding How Good People Turn Evil
2. Philip Zimbardo shows how people become monsters ... or heroes
3. The Lucifer Effect
losklan (User's profile) December 23, 2010, 1:17:54 AM
ceigered (User's profile) December 23, 2010, 4:52:54 AM
Wilhelm:Oh, sorry, I did not mean to imply that they should be disciplined, I just wanted to point out hows strange it was that no one even sought to blame someone else. (Although, I wouldn't mind slapping them around a bit, but they've got their own conscience to do that for them).ceigered:Seriously? The fact that US Apache pilots shot down journos and weren't disciplined over it seems pretty bad to me, and I certainly heard nothing of it until Wikileaks came out with it.Why should they be disciplined? They were just following orders.
It's not the apples that are bad, it's the whole barrel that's rotten.
Anyway, those videos are actually pretty interesting. Good reminder not to blame said bad apples and analyse the situation better eh
(although the bit about heroism does get complicated, due to the various responsibilities required) Thanks Wilhelm! rusto (User's profile) December 23, 2010, 2:20:29 PM
Wilhelm:That argument failed at Nuremberg.
Why should they be disciplined? They were just following orders.
Just saying.
erinja (User's profile) December 23, 2010, 2:33:56 PM
Miland (User's profile) December 23, 2010, 3:58:24 PM
Wilhelm:See below: Philip Zimbardo..That's a very good lecture by Philip Zimbardo. I can also recommend the German-language movie Das Experiment based on the Stanford Prison Experiment.
But his lecture, while Zimbardo deals with how situations can turn ordinary people into evildoers, he ends with how heroes are made: they take action without thinking of themselves.