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We ought to stop talking about this...

by Roberto12, December 18, 2010

Messages: 36

Language: English

Roberto12 (User's profile) December 18, 2010, 11:34:24 AM

It's that word "ought" again. It has occurred to me in the past that "ought" is the diminutive of "must", so what do you think about the following phrases? (And no, it isn't de + vet, it's dev + et).

ni iru = let's go
ni devas iri = we must go/we need to go
ni devus iri = we would have to go
ni devetas iri = we ought to go/we should go

I predict the following responses. Erinja won't like it, Ceigered will like it, a third person (possibly Darkweasel) will agree with Erinja, and a fourth person will sit on the fence rideto.gif

ceigered (User's profile) December 18, 2010, 12:09:41 PM

Ceigered decides to do a game-changer and sits on the fence rido.gif (and am I really that common around here?)

It's essentially untranslatable since "ought" is really just a word for must/should that can be used in that diminuative/watered-down sense or be used in the sense of "I have to help him, but I don't want to so I won't" or something like that.

I think it's actually related to the word "owe" or something a bit like that.

I don't mind deveti so really do what you like I think rido.gif
(also, if one were to misunderstand it as de+vet, that actually isn't to far off from the meaning, if you think of it as "I bet I should do something about such and such" okulumo.gif

darkweasel (User's profile) December 18, 2010, 12:37:02 PM

I've never seen such usage, and I'd actually prefer to use a -u form in such a case. -u has many meanings (command, recommendation, suggestion, ...).

Because ni iru would often be understood as a command "let's go", maybe you could stuck in eble to make it sound more like a "diminutive of must": ni eble iru.

(Then again, maybe I've misunderstood what "ought" means in English, so use my response with care.)

There is nothing logically wrong with deveti, just I've never seen it.

ceigered (User's profile) December 18, 2010, 12:41:57 PM

Actually darkweasel that's a good suggestion, I think that's not so bad for translating some of the uses of "ought to".

Ah, also, I might point out that for whatever reason the vortaro has "devi" translated to English as "to ought to", so you could just get away with that.

Chainy (User's profile) December 18, 2010, 12:43:28 PM

Roberto12:I predict the following responses. Erinja won't like it, Ceigered will like it, a third person (possibly Darkweasel) will agree with Erinja, and a fourth person will sit on the fence rideto.gif
I like your predictions! ridulo.gif

This topic keeps coming up. It's certainly a tricky one to get the hang of. Especially if you try to translate from English to Esperanto. It's probably a bit easier if you stop looking for direct translations. And the context helps a lot. Don't worry, I'll try jumping off the fence soon... ridulo.gif Just need to gather my thoughts on it!!

darkweasel (User's profile) December 18, 2010, 12:48:04 PM

ceigered:in the sense of "I have to help him, but I don't want to so I won't"
That's exactly what devus is for, actually.
Chainy:I like your predictions! ridulo.gif
+1 rido.gif

horsto (User's profile) December 18, 2010, 12:51:07 PM

darkweasel:

Because ni iru would often be understood as a command "let's go", maybe you could stuck in eble to make it sound more like a "diminutive of must": ni eble iru.
Or perhaps: Ni pli bone iru (nun).

PS: You're really dark today! okulumo.gif

darkweasel (User's profile) December 18, 2010, 12:57:02 PM

horsto:
PS: You're really dark today! okulumo.gif
Operation Black Face (but in fact, that's off-topic here).

Chainy (User's profile) December 18, 2010, 1:18:49 PM

This is tricky, because you can make a nice list giving direct translations of 'devi' and then you have to throw it out of the window, depending on the context. Compare:

1. Ni devAs iri - this is kind of like 'We have to go'. You would use it in this context:

Peter: I really can't be bothered going to the the tax office today.
Jane: Yes, but we have to go (=ni devas iri), or we'll find ourselves in a whole load of trouble.

2. Ni devUs iri - this is similar, but the '-u-' can suggest a more hypothetical situation. For example:

Peter: What would you do, if you had to be (=se vi devus esti) at the tax office at a certain time, but then you realised that this clashed with your favourite daytime TV show?
Jane: I'd watch the TV show, of course.

---

I'll get back to you about the whole 'let's...' saga...! ridulo.gif

Roberto12 (User's profile) December 18, 2010, 1:20:19 PM

Great replies from everyone, thanks.

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