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U ending

de keithwood57, 2010-decembro-27

Mesaĝoj: 10

Lingvo: English

keithwood57 (Montri la profilon) 2010-decembro-27 09:50:26

Saluton!
I wonder if someone would be kind enough to lay out the use of the 'U' ending.
I have read and re-read these sentences in Piron's Gerda Malaperis and cannot for the life of me see why the 'U' ending is used in preference to the 'as' ending in these cases:

p6 "Eble li volas, ke sxi rigardu al la alia direkto..."
p7 "Cxu vi permesas, ke mi sidu cxe via tablo? ... Kompreneble, vi sidu kun ni."
p17 "Cxu mi sekvos lin? Cxu mi sekvu lin?" (That one totally mystifies me - she uses both forms. apparently to say the same thing!)
"Cxu mi sekvu lin ekstere?"
I would be grateful if someone could clarify the rule for me.
Dankon!
Kicxjo.

darkweasel (Montri la profilon) 2010-decembro-27 11:25:51

The following pages should help you:
When should I use the -u verb ending?
-u problems

Miland (Montri la profilon) 2010-decembro-27 12:04:12

keithwood57:I .. cannot .. see why the 'U' ending is used in preference to the 'as' ending in these cases:

p6 "Eble li volas, ke sxi rigardu al la alia direkto..."
p7 "Cxu vi permesas, ke mi sidu cxe via tablo? ... Kompreneble, vi sidu kun ni."
p17 "Cxu mi sekvos lin? Cxu mi sekvu lin?" (That one totally mystifies me - she uses both forms. apparently to say the same thing!)
"Cxu mi sekvu lin ekstere?".
The ending -u is used to express a wish, whereas -as is used to express plain facts. So on page 6 we have "Possibly he wants that she (should) look in the other direction". On page 7 we have "Is it all right with you that I (may) sit here? ... Of course, (do) sit with us." On page 17 we have "Will I follow him? Should I follow him? Should I follow him outside?" In the first of these she is speculating about whether she is likely to do something in the future. In the others she is wondering whether she should do it at all.

Hope that helps.

sudanglo (Montri la profilon) 2010-decembro-28 09:46:33

Keith, the p17 ekzample is a little odd to me also, but then I don't know the full context.

The difference between the two forms is a little clearer with other verbs.

With gajni en la loterio, only the indicative form would be expectd. The only sensible question is Will I win, ĉu mi gajnos. Ĉu mi gajnu would be strange as normally you have no control over winning.

A teenage girl, however might ask herself Will I ever get married, or debate with herself as to whether she should get married. The latter could be expressed with the u-form in Esperanto.

Ironchef (Montri la profilon) 2010-decembro-28 14:41:36

sudanglo:...With gajni en la loterio, only the indicative form would be expectd. The only sensible question is Will I win, ĉu mi gajnos. Ĉu mi gajnu would be strange as normally you have no control over winning....
Does ĉu mi gajnu not suggest the subjunctive as in "were I to win....I would...." something?

darkweasel (Montri la profilon) 2010-decembro-28 16:22:30

Ironchef:
sudanglo:...With gajni en la loterio, only the indicative form would be expectd. The only sensible question is Will I win, ĉu mi gajnos. Ĉu mi gajnu would be strange as normally you have no control over winning....
Does ĉu mi gajnu not suggest the subjunctive as in "were I to win....I would...." something?
No, that's -us.

ceigered (Montri la profilon) 2010-decembro-29 08:38:28

Perhaps we English speakers feel that we can directly influence our chances of winning the lottery by pure volition, thus "should I win the lottery..." lango.gif

sudanglo (Montri la profilon) 2010-decembro-29 12:01:36

If the loterio or some other game were fixed and there were a number of fixers having a debate about which of them it would be best to have as the winner, then one of them at one point might say 'Do, ĉu mi gajnu?' volunteering his services as the winner but at the same time seeking confirmation with the others - 'Right then, so shall I be the winner'.

A more natural use of 'ĉu mi ... u' would be if someone said it was too hot and another person volunteered to open a window.

A. Ĉu vi ne trovas ke estas iom varme ĉi tie.
B. Eble, ĉu mi malfermu fenestron?
A. Bonvolu.

B's reply in English might be 'Would you like me to open a window' but the function of this is to seek instruction - they are asking for u-type equivalent response.

erinja (Montri la profilon) 2010-decembro-29 13:05:51

Just because something uses the subjunctive in Esperanto English, doesn't that mean that -u is suitable for that situation in Esperanto. Every language does subjunctives slightly differently, so there's never a one to one correspondence between two languages. In addition, -u doesn't exactly mean "subjunctive" in Esperanto, even though we use it for some things that would take a subjunctive form in other languages.

"Ĉu mi gajnu?" would mean "Should I win?" in terms of maybe, am I worthy of winning? And "Mi gajnu!" means that I feel I have a right to win, I deserve to win, I *should* win!

But "Were I to win, I would..." this is really just a re-wording of a standard if-then statement. "If I won, I would...", which is a standard -us -us combination, "Se mi gajnus, mi ...-us"

keithwood57 (Montri la profilon) 2010-decembro-30 10:00:09

May I thank everyone who has been kind enough to post suggestions regarding my problem with the 'U' ending.
I will download them and study them.
I wish you all a Very Happy and Peaceful New Year.
Keith

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