訊息: 18
語言: English
ceigered (顯示個人資料) 2010年12月29日上午9:01:33
Can Esperanto now be considered "useful" (that is, in the common sense of today that something's only useful if another country speaks it)?
This is pretty late news by almost a year and a half, but I like living in the past
Esperanto approved by Brazilian gov't as optional subject, mandatory if justified by demand
Brazilian schools will teach Esperanto
It seems according to wikipedia that while this bill has passed the senate, there is little information about further progress through Brazil's legal system. Anyone have any further information?
I feel like this is a great bonus to those both interested in Esperanto or learning it (or have already learnt it) since it gives one hope that in the near future, "No country speaks Esperanto" might be nullified, with Brazil not only being a developing nation but their youth may be taught Esperanto too.
Sure, detractors might find something new to mope about in regards to this crazy language we speak/write in, but at least we have something to point and laugh about like hooligans
(Slightly off topic, but I found this recent article on Esperanto too, which covers the same topic as a recent NYT article, from what I understand to be a Jewish perspective - "Esperanto, the "World Yiddish"". Interesting to read about Zamenhoff's Hillelism!)
This is pretty late news by almost a year and a half, but I like living in the past
Esperanto approved by Brazilian gov't as optional subject, mandatory if justified by demand
Brazilian schools will teach Esperanto
It seems according to wikipedia that while this bill has passed the senate, there is little information about further progress through Brazil's legal system. Anyone have any further information?
I feel like this is a great bonus to those both interested in Esperanto or learning it (or have already learnt it) since it gives one hope that in the near future, "No country speaks Esperanto" might be nullified, with Brazil not only being a developing nation but their youth may be taught Esperanto too.
Sure, detractors might find something new to mope about in regards to this crazy language we speak/write in, but at least we have something to point and laugh about like hooligans
(Slightly off topic, but I found this recent article on Esperanto too, which covers the same topic as a recent NYT article, from what I understand to be a Jewish perspective - "Esperanto, the "World Yiddish"". Interesting to read about Zamenhoff's Hillelism!)
sudanglo (顯示個人資料) 2010年12月29日下午12:11:52
Languages don't have to be useful to be taught in school.
I was listening to a radio program this morning about Wales and I am pretty sure I heard someone say that the teaching of Welsh in the schools is now compulsory upto a certain level.
What insanity, in a country where almost everybody is a native speaker of English.
I was listening to a radio program this morning about Wales and I am pretty sure I heard someone say that the teaching of Welsh in the schools is now compulsory upto a certain level.
What insanity, in a country where almost everybody is a native speaker of English.
erinja (顯示個人資料) 2010年12月29日下午1:08:47
Not to get into a huge debate of Welsh but I support mandatory teaching of Welsh in Wales. I think that learning *any* foreign language is preferable to no language at all. Wales is the language of the place and it has sadly mainly been displaced by English. But that doesn't mean we should consign it to the rubbish bin of history. And the British generally learn languages so poorly, I have to say that I support making some kind of language compulsory. In a place like Wales, that compulsory language may as well be Welsh.
ceigered (顯示個人資料) 2010年12月29日下午1:41:37
sudanglo:What insanity, in a country where almost everybody is a native speaker of English.Well, one could say the same about EO
I can't agree with you on the insanity part, anyway.Although, when I see some people my age and a bit more (or less) talking about Cumbria or Wales as if they're some sort of oppressed or occupied kingdoms, then "insanity" does come to mind. The British languages belong to all britons equally, at least DNA testing's shown that to be the general case, and yet languages like Welsh are propped up as a sort of regional divider at times.
Anyway, as far as things are today in the anglosphere at least (Brazil seemingly is a bit more fun than us), I doubt there'll be much delving into the history of languages in Britain at school level unless it's somehow proves good for business.
sudanglo (顯示個人資料) 2010年12月29日下午2:15:04
Can't agree Erinja. Just seems to me like imposing an unnecessary burden on school pupils to satisfy some provincial bloodymindedness.
Taken to their logical conclusion, any justifying arguments would imply teaching local (not national) languages throughout Europe.
The Welsh can indulge in this 'luxury', because they already know English.
Would you have the teaching of Indian languages compulsory in America, just because they were indigenous. I don't think so.
And, Ceiger, the case for compulsory Esperanto is not the same.
Apart from the educational value, after one generation, the pupils would at least be equipped with a useable 'people's' lingua franca which could be made use of throughout Europe if the Europeans followed suit.
Taken to their logical conclusion, any justifying arguments would imply teaching local (not national) languages throughout Europe.
The Welsh can indulge in this 'luxury', because they already know English.
Would you have the teaching of Indian languages compulsory in America, just because they were indigenous. I don't think so.
And, Ceiger, the case for compulsory Esperanto is not the same.
Apart from the educational value, after one generation, the pupils would at least be equipped with a useable 'people's' lingua franca which could be made use of throughout Europe if the Europeans followed suit.
ceigered (顯示個人資料) 2010年12月29日下午3:54:45
sudanglo:And, Ceiger, the case for compulsory Esperanto is not the same.Can't see how not. Both Welsh and Esperanto fulfil a perceived need that is already being fulfilled by another language. Welsh also has educational worth, and while not as neutral as that of Esperanto, it still gives exposure to a second language, a range of new phonemes, and has historical relevance since for a great time the british languages were still quite strongly spoken.
Apart from the educational value, after one generation, the pupils would at least be equipped with a useable 'people's' lingua franca which could be made use of throughout Europe if the Europeans followed suit.
The fact is, both Welsh and Esperanto are equally "unnecessary". However, they are both used to augment the benefits of existing languages. English ain't a perfect lingua franca, which is why EO exists. English ain't a true representation of the (linguistical) history of the british people, that includes you and me no doubt, and thus Welsh shows another side to the heritage of most English speakers and the history of their people.
Anyway, if we continue to take subjects away from said burdened school pupils, they'll just be at school for homeroom and the attendance list before leaving
And what the heck do you want them to learn? They're likely not gonna learn Esperanto, even then, they could learn it at the same time as Welsh due to the nature of the language, it's not like Wales is gonna be coming into close trading with China or Japan any day soon, and there doesn't appear to be an influx of Mexican immigrants either in Wales. Ultimately I see no problem in Welsh's propagation in the school system, all those I know who've come in contact with Welsh during their school education seem pretty fond of it (although like with most LOTE programs they can't remember much of the language itself). 
feliz123 (顯示個人資料) 2010年12月29日下午7:11:50
I have also heard about that proposal, but in the last year I've seen no sign of progress.
Also, I (and the absolute majority of brazilians, I think) don't believe in our congress efficiency. Politicians here are generally regarded as corrupt and selfish (I am not helping my country international relations, right?). So I doubt Esperanto will become anything like official here.
Of course all this is just my opinion.
Also, I (and the absolute majority of brazilians, I think) don't believe in our congress efficiency. Politicians here are generally regarded as corrupt and selfish (I am not helping my country international relations, right?). So I doubt Esperanto will become anything like official here.
Of course all this is just my opinion.
Miland (顯示個人資料) 2010年12月29日下午10:02:26
Esperanto as an optional subject for those who are interested sounds like a good idea. I'm not enthusiastic about it being compulsory, because such subjects should be necessary for building a career, or at least very useful. In Brazil that probably means Portuguese, and English or Spanish as second languages. Q for feliz: what is the standard pattern of language teaching in Brazilian schools?
Alciona (顯示個人資料) 2010年12月30日上午1:39:22
sudanglo:Can't agree Erinja. Just seems to me like imposing an unnecessary burden on school pupils to satisfy some provincial bloodymindedness.Your statement, 'if the Europeans followed suit' is a big 'if' though, isn't it? While I would not argue against learning Esperanto, obviously since I'm learning the language, I would not dismiss learning local languages so quickly. Learning local indigenous languages helps people understand and appreciate local indigenous culture and history. It reclaims and transmits aspects of culture that would otherwise be lost. There are schools in Australia that teach Aboriginal languages for exactly this reason.
Taken to their logical conclusion, any justifying arguments would imply teaching local (not national) languages throughout Europe.
The Welsh can indulge in this 'luxury', because they already know English.
Would you have the teaching of Indian languages compulsory in America, just because they were indigenous. I don't think so.
And, Ceiger, the case for compulsory Esperanto is not the same.
Apart from the educational value, after one generation, the pupils would at least be equipped with a useable 'people's' lingua franca which could be made use of throughout Europe if the Europeans followed suit.
Victorian Essential Learning Standards: Aboriginal Languages
It isn't about learning local languages in lieu of national languages. Even in Aboriginal communities local languages are taught in addition to English, not in place of English. (The Northern Territory government currently mandates that the bilingual schools to teach their first four hours each day in English.)
In the end, it's really up to the Welsh people to decide how useful the Welsh language is to them. For outsiders to proclaim that their language isn't worthy of being taught in schools smacks of cultural imperialism. There are many local languages that have few global speakers, but to dismiss them as being useless because they're not global ignores the important role that language plays in transmitting culture from one generation to the next. Establishing a neutral international lingua franca is a lofty goal, but it should not be at the expense of local linguistic cultures.
ceigered (顯示個人資料) 2010年12月30日上午3:42:24
feliz123:Politicians here are generally regarded as corrupt and selfish (I am not helping my country international relations, right?)Haha, no problem, I'm sure that most other countries think our own politicians are also corrupt and selfish
.Alciona:In the end, it's really up to the Welsh people to decide how useful the Welsh language is to them. For outsiders to proclaim that their language isn't worthy of being taught in schools smacks of cultural imperialism.Well, see, this is where I feel Sudanglo has a valid point - it's not really about the Welsh being culturally subjugated, the Welsh are as much English as the English are Welsh. Essentially, the main division are that the "English" are those who let go of their british languages, and the "Welsh" are those who keep their language. The traditions however and culture are virtually similar, it's just that the "Welsh" can recognise them as their own, where as the "English" take them for granted nowadays.
It is, however, unnecessarily exclusionist to treat Welsh as useless in this case. English is pretty useless to, I find myself communicating with people who are linguistically cut off from me quite well with various hand signals and onomatopoeic noises
Either way, there's two extremes, and neither really achieve anything so I don't see a need to take either...