How about something like this?

About Reforming Esperanto

It sometimes happens that people new to Esperanto (and even those who aren't so new) have ideas about how the language could be improved, and they are eager to persuade others. Often, they are motivated by the belief that if their improvements were adopted Esperanto would be much more successful than it is. These people may be frustrated to find that their ideas get a cool reception among those who know the language well and use it regularly. Before concluding that Esperantists are, by nature, a surly and stubborn lot, they should consider the following points:

1. Esperanto has a kind of Constitution, the Fundamento, which is regarded as "untouchable". The Fundamento sets out the basic principles of the language, models of usage, and its original vocabulary. The "untouchable" part does not mean that words may not be added or forgotten. It does mean, however, that the basic rules about how the language works are not open to revision.

2. Esperantists gladly accept the restrictions of the Fundamento because they provide stability, which has allowed the language not only to survive, but to evolve without collapsing into chaos. They do not accept it because they think that everything in the Fundamento is "perfect".

3. History has shown that the probability of getting a majority of people to agree upon any set of proposed modifications is near zero. The likely result of opening the door to changes to the Fundamento is endless rancorous dispute.

4. Esperanto is well tested by hundreds of thousands of people, for well over a century, and has demonstrated, to anyone who cares to learn about it, that it is a fully functional language just as it is. It is not "broken."

5. There is no evidence that Esperanto has been held back by its failure to implement the reforms that you are considering. To be sure, for any detail that you might think of, there have no doubt been people who rejected Esperanto because of it. That doesn't begin to show that, on the whole, Esperanto is less successful than it would otherwise be because it hasn't implemented some set of reforms.

6. Many people who actually make the effort to learn Esperanto and use it find that the things that they once regarded as problems later seem unproblematic, and even advantageous.

Miland:

Chainy:I think the tone is a bit too too cold and formal.

It was meant to be a standard letter, impersonal in tone. People who would like something different are welcome to try.

yes, I know. Just that it's best to avoid giving the impression of snootiness!

Although, I admit it's very difficult to put such text together...

Chainy:

johmue:

RiotNrrd:I am all in favor of a Lernu page that explains why Esperantists are conservative types (linquistically). It doesn't have to be snide or mean.

And besides that I think it would be worth while having a forum like "Neoficiala lingvouzo"

This could be a good idea, johmue. Complaints about Esperanto *in* Esperanto. Of course, someone could then use machine translation software to get round the requirement to use Esperanto.

But if someone wants to have their opinions about reforms and changes really respected by others, then they need to show an excellent knowledge of Esperanto. This probably wouldn't be possible with machine translation.

On the other hand, it's perfectly possible to discuss unofficial Esperanto in the "Konsultejo". Is it really necessary to create a separate section for this, as if it deserves extra merit in comparison to other questions that might turn up in the Konsultejo?

I think people here are generally ok about people grumbling about Esperanto if they do so in Esperanto. The big problem is these threads which are often initiated by people who don't know a lot about Esperanto. That's what winds people up and leads to these senseless discussions.

Banning it all together is possibly difficult and controversial. There could be some tricky moments to decide on for the administrators.

A separate area, the 'moan bin' or 'grievances' section. Finding a suitable name is difficult, but the general concept of having the separate area seems it could be good - it would keep this kind of talk (especially that of trolls) separate from the main English language forum (or any other national language forum), which would enable Forum users that are genuinely interested in Esperanto to use their forums without all the hassle.

Sorry, I'm not being very consistent in my views here. Just airing some ideas, thinking aloud!

I like Todd's list. Very reasonable in tone.

I wonder if it would be worth first creating such a page and directing people to it, and seeing if that decreases the trolling at all; and then after that, consider adding a moan bin thread or similar.

On the "language reforms" forum thread, technically you could discuss language reforms in any number of the Esperanto threads - "Viewpoints" or "About other languages" or "About anything else". I don't know if it's worth making a specific thread just for that. At any rate if it were an Esperanto-only forum, that wouldn't solve the problem of beginners coming here and offering "solutions"

I think lernu does have to be careful about what it offers. Although lernu isn't Esperanto and doesn't represent the Esperanto community, as the biggest Esperanto learning website, beginners may get a false impression that lernu does represent the Esperanto community. Therefore lernu should be careful not to give anyone any wrong ideas - number one, any false ideas that language reform proposals will be considered for adoption, number two, that we consider it 'acceptable' to speak in anything but official Esperanto. We teach traditional Esperanto here. For beginners, it can be hard to distinguish between regular Esperanto that everyone speaks, and various new innovations that very few people use (ri, icx, na, etc). I know this for a fact because as a beginner, I experimented with a few of these kinds of things because they seemed to be a convenient way of expressing ideas that seemed hard to translate from English to Esperanto. I didn't realize at the time that these innovations are used only by a tiny percentage of Esperantists. After gaining some experience I realized that I didn't need those forms and that hardly anyone else used them, and I stopped using them.

I would like for beginners who come to lernu not to have any doubt that everything they learn at lernu is standard Esperanto that they can feel comfortable speaking anywhere. They will learn about those various innovations soon enough; the important thing is to give them a basic language skill that the entire Esperanto community agrees upon.

Miland:

wannabe reformer:I am interested in Esperanto and might learn it some day. Meanwhile, here is a suggestion on how you could improve it to make it easier for me and many others...

This subject is dealt with [url]here[/url].

(Of course, the page hasn't been written yet).

I wonder if this would actually work? I'm trying to imagine it - do you think others would find such a link satisfactory enough so that they wouldn't feel obliged to join in the argument?! Maybe.

Perhaps it could be worth a try. And then that alone could perhaps be enough - maybe a 'moan bin' or more extreme banning measures would then not be necessary?

I think the best thing to do is to open a section "Reformoj" (in esperanto only) where reformers can speak among themselves and with those who are willing to answer them. I'm ready to bet (as I've already experienced ) that they will neutralize each other, and that the most intelligent will then understand WHY the esperantists are so reluctant toward reforms.

However, it is possible (although improbable) that one of them invents a miracle reform that could immediately bring millions of new fans to the cause of a constructed international language, and in this case, it would be wrong to be choosy !

A website for learning Esperanto should not give a platform to people who want to reform it.

If they do it on other forums, just explain to them that Esperanto is a living language that is not going to be changed, no matter how good the proposals are, and then ignore them. At least that's what I do.

Chainy:..it's best to avoid giving the impression of snootiness!

I don't recall anyone else making such a complaint. The impression may be only subjective.

T0dd:How about something like this?

About Reforming Esperanto

It sometimes happens that people new to Esperanto (and even those who aren't so new) have ideas about how the language could be improved, and they are eager to persuade others. Often, they are motivated by the belief that if their improvements were adopted Esperanto would be much more successful than it is. These people may be frustrated to find that their ideas get a cool reception among those who know the language well and use it regularly. Before concluding that Esperantists are, by nature, a surly and stubborn lot, they should consider the following points:

1. Esperanto has a kind of Constitution, the Fundamento, which is regarded as "untouchable". The Fundamento sets out the basic principles of the language, models of usage, and its original vocabulary. The "untouchable" part does not mean that words may not be added or forgotten. It does mean, however, that the basic rules about how the language works are not open to revision.

I like your text, Todd. I agree that the tone certainly seems pretty good.

What do you mean by "...or forgotten"? Maybe we could somehow put the idea of 'untouchable' in a slightly different way? Some people might see that word and jump to the conclusion that we're all worshiping some kind religious document!

T0dd:
2. Esperantists gladly accept the restrictions of the Fundamento because they provide stability, which has allowed the language not only to survive, but to evolve without collapsing into chaos. They do not accept it because they think that everything in the Fundamento is "perfect".

This seems to be quite well put. Maybe in the last sentence you could underline that 'it' is the Fundamento.

T0dd:
3. History has shown that the probability of getting a majority of people to agree upon any set of proposed modifications is near zero. The likely result of opening the door to changes to the Fundamento is endless rancorous dispute.

4. Esperanto is well tested by hundreds of thousands of people, for well over a century, and has demonstrated, to anyone who cares to learn about it, that it is a fully functional language just as it is. It is not "broken."

Yes, pointing out the fact that there is already a reasonably large number of Esperanto speakers is important. It makes it clear why dramatic changes can't possibly be expected to be adopted! Change, if it is at all needed, happens within the community of Esperanto speakers. In a similar way to national languages, apart from the fact that Esperanto development is kept within the guidelines of the Fundamento, well hopefully.

T0dd:
5. There is no evidence that Esperanto has been held back by its failure to implement the reforms that you are considering. To be sure, for any detail that you might think of, there have no doubt been people who rejected Esperanto because of it. That doesn't begin to show that, on the whole, Esperanto is less successful than it would otherwise be because it hasn't implemented some set of reforms.

6. Many people who actually make the effort to learn Esperanto and use it find that the things that they once regarded as problems later seem unproblematic, and even advantageous.

Yes, I think you're very close to a nice explanation here.

I definitely would not support opening a "Reformoj" section. That would add fuel to the fire by implying that Esperanto is open to reform.

I am trying to think of the best way to handle something like a moan bin. It seems so weird to open a forum thread that is specifically for complaints. I was wondering if it would be worth generalizing the idea to a forum where you could discuss any topic (even off-topic) in any language. Sort of like the Esperanto thread "Pri ĉio cetera" but in any language. But then again it's hard to justify that as well - pretty much the whole internet is a "pri ĉio cetera" forum, isn't it?