Beiträge: 386
Sprache: English
tommjames (Profil anzeigen) 14. März 2011 15:59:04
T0dd:We don't say ruĝas min or even, usually, ruĝal al mi because red is considered an objective, perceiver-independent property (never mind what Berkeley and Locke thought). Plaĉa, however, is quite perceiver-dependent.I just used ruĝ' as an example to make the point. You can take any other qualitative root, which according to your view is not to be considered objective, and my point still stands. I assume bel' will do for that, as beauty is a "perceiver dependant", subjective quality. We don't say belas min.
If it counts for anything, PMEG seems to see it the same way:
"Plaĉi - La subjekto estas tio, kio havas bonajn ecojn aŭ kondutas bone. Tiu, kiu sentas plezuron pro tiu boneco, aperas kiel al-komplemento: Al ĉiu besto plaĉas ĝia nesto.[PE.16] Lia heroeco tre plaĉis al mi.[FE.45]"
Translated: The subject is that which has good qualities or good conduct. The person who senses pleasure due to those qualities appears as an al-compliment.
Note that the description is "has good qualities" not "makes people sense pleasure due to those qualities".
T0dd:I haven't admitted that point, i.e., that the verb is somehow inherently intransitive.I didn't suggest, or at least I didn't mean to suggest, that you'd admitted the verb is inherently intransitive. Only that the community has settled on that sense of the verb.
T0dd:The editors of NPIV have decided to make that usage normativeI very much doubt the predominantly intransitive usage has become normative under the influence of PIV, though I can perhaps concede that the existence of an authoritative dictionary which promotes that usage can have an effect.
T0dd (Profil anzeigen) 14. März 2011 17:37:10
tommjames:I very much doubt the predominantly intransitive usage has become normative under the influence of PIV, though I can perhaps concede that the existence of an authoritative dictionary which promotes that usage can have an effect.To my way of thinking, it's one thing to note that most speakers use a verb without a direct object, and quite another to say in an authoritative dictionary that it should or must be so used--especially when doing so actually causes a break with the pattern of noun+verb compounds, as this apparently does (But I may have overlooked other exceptions). This is why I find this questionable.
To take another example, mentioned somewhere earlier in this long thread, there's the use of kelka with continuous quantities, such as coffee, time, etc. My sense is that by far the dominant usage in such cases is to use kelke da rather than kelka. But I believe it would be a mistake for the next edition of NPIV to stipulate that kelka is off limits.
Rules that introduce complications or irregularities, as the intransitivity of matenmanĝi does by being unpredictable and not congruent with other noun+verb compounds, need a stronger justification than the fact that most people use it without a direct object.
But I thank you for your arguments, and I concede that there's a close parallel between plaĉi and beli, which makes a good case that plaĉi should have started life as an adjective.
bartlett22183 (Profil anzeigen) 14. März 2011 19:06:34
Miland:(This thread is moving so fast that if I login to lernu! only once a day, it is hard to keep up.sudanglo:.. it is laughable to compare Esperanto with the language projects that came after it..I wouldn't regard Glosa as a joke, in terms of its conception. Don Harlow states that it is virtually unknown, but makes no linguistic criticism.
Otherwise I would have commented sooner.)I think I may be able to comment here at least somewhat knowledgeably. Unlike many people, I have actually read Hogben's Interglossa. In fact, I own two copies of it, which are hard to come by. On the other hand, some years ago I was in close contact with the principals (Clark and Ashby) of Glosa and had some involvement with the language. My own honest conclusion is that although Glosa had its origin in a notion of Interglossa, they are actually quite different languages. In my considered opinion, although not strictly so Glosa is to a large extent little more than English relexified with a distorted Greek-derived vocabulary. Interglossa was much different.
Miland:Whether a rival to Esperanto could arise in the future that would be more effective than Esperanto has been, I don't know. But it would have to prove itself, and that would not be easy.Having been around the conIAL field, I am coming more and more to the opinion that Esperanto is the only constructed language with much hope of competing with the juggernaut of English.
Paŭlo
sudanglo (Profil anzeigen) 15. März 2011 11:32:47
The corpus is organised by date of publication - the entries are in chronological order, and you can subselect any period you are interested in.
Having the reaction that 'kelke da' had an archaic flavour, I had a look, and pre 1930 there seem to be many more use of 'kelke da' than later.
For me, 'Post kelka tempo alvenis la buso' is much more natural than 'Post kelke da'
T0dd (Profil anzeigen) 15. März 2011 23:19:14
tommjames (Profil anzeigen) 16. März 2011 10:26:42
T0dd:I can't make out the trend without spending more time on it than I have right now.This may help:
kelke da \\w+o\\b (singular, 24 hits)
kelke da \\w+oj\\b (plural, 673 hits)
kelka \\w+o\\b (singular, 292 hits)
kelkaj \\w+oj\\b (plural, reached maximum of 1000 hits but likely to be more)
sudanglo (Profil anzeigen) 16. März 2011 11:25:23
I often want to specify my searches in Tekstaro, but haven't learnt much of what the various operators can do.
A thread with a list of the most useful ones, with examples, would be very helpful.
I assume \w+o\b means followed by word ending in o. So return all incidences like 'kelke da tempo'
tommjames (Profil anzeigen) 16. März 2011 11:40:45
sudanglo:A thread with a list of the most useful ones, with examples, would be very helpful.There's a help page here. A basic summary of the syntax is down at the section "Specialaj serĉosimboloj".
I assume \\w+o\\b means followed by word ending in o. So return all incidences like 'kelke da tempo'Yes, \\w means a letter and + means one or more. The o is the noun ending, \\b means "word limit" which is either a space, punctuation or end of the text itself. In this case I used it to make sure the match "o" was the end of the word.
By the way, backslash seems to be a special character in the Lernu forums so to show it in a post you have to type two of them: \\\\ (4 in this case
) T0dd (Profil anzeigen) 16. März 2011 12:08:54
But I didn't track the chronological trend, as sudanglo did. My personal sense is that I never hear kelka(n) in the singular, and seldom see it in writing. People seem to prefer kelke da or iom da for indefinite amounts of continuous quantities. It sticks in my mind because once I found myself looking up kelka[k/] to see if it was legitimate to use it this way.
Kraughne (Profil anzeigen) 30. Juni 2011 07:23:50
♥.