Dude you might wanna xheck out "en+eo" if it still exists, soubds like something you might be interested in and a good compromise.

Ellernadi = to learn from (a source) (continuously - e.g. Adi gives the -le distinction of english (punch vs thrott*le*).

Thus "i learnt from french and german throught my childhood" vs "when i was a kid i leaent french at a summer camp"

Forgivr typing, iphone

is

erinja:Malbona isn't "ungood"; it's "opposite of good".

I hope that you also come up with English neologisms for new un- words in English, since you feel that un- words that haven't been around for 1000 years are Orwellian. How do you unfriend someone on Facebook without un-?

Malbona certainly is "ungood"; in English "un" means "opposite of." Therefore by definition all mal- words that lack a directly corresponding "un-" type word (or de-, im-, in- etc.) in a historical language are direct equivalents of the simplistic, dumbed-down Newspeak Orwell depicted in 1984. That much is obvious.

I need no neoligisms for new un- words in English. I can say anything I need to in English without ever using those words, and so could you. I could stop being someone's friend on Facebook quite simply.

erinja:De-friend? Or is that Orwellian too?

You're being absurd here. De- anything isn't remotely Orwellian, in 1984 Newspeak had no de- words that I know of. The regime there was busy creating un- (i.e. mal-) words to replace other, more expressive words and dumb everyone down.

Epikuro57:
I thank you for that link, Zamenhoff's text reinforces my view rather than changes it. He says there, "Germanan kaj francan lingvojn mi ellernadis en infaneco." Ellernadi was hitherto unknown to me, from the context it means learn but none of the online Esperanto-English dictionaries I've consulted have it. Clearly it's been replaced by the verb lerni, which would seem to be a direct importation of the English verb learn in place of one of Zamenhof's creations.

Now, this is why I don't get why everyone's being so patient with you. You're not even bothering to properly research the situation before making your grand conclusions!

"El" is a prefix that can be put onto the front of verbs to signify that the thing is done to completion, or along those lines. So 'el/lern/ad/is' would mean that he learnt the languages to high degree of proficiency, rather than just dabble in them a bit. The addition of '-ad-' indicates that the learning process took quite a period of time.

The basic verb is 'lerni' - then you can add prefixes etc to this to give more precise meaning. Nobody ever thought "oh let's just ditch all that cr@p and stick with the bit that sounds similar to 'learn'"

Please make an effort to learn about the system of Esperanto grammar, the clever way words and verbs are created. The flexibility etc. Spend some time on this and you'll really start to appreciate it. Don't just glimpse through everything and jump to the wrong conclusions. Try doing the course on Lernu to really find out what Esperanto is about. You can do correspondence courses here, where more experienced learners will help you. Check out the section above named 'courses'.

Chainy:Now, this is why I don't get why everyone's being so patient with you. You're not even bothering to properly research the situation before making your grand conclusions!

"El" is a prefix that can be put onto the front of verbs to signify that the thing is done to completion, or along those lines. So 'el/lern/ad/is' would mean that he learnt the languages to high degree of proficiency, rather than just dabble in them a bit. The addition of '-ad-' indicates that the learning process took quite a period of time.

The basic verb is 'lerni' - then you can add prefixes etc to this to give more precise meaning. Nobody ever thought "oh let's just ditch all that cr@p and stick with the bit that sounds similar to 'learn'"

Please make an effort to learn about the system of Esperanto grammar, the clever way words and verbs are created. The flexibility etc. Spend some time on this and you'll really start to appreciate it. Don't just glimpse through everything and jump to the wrong conclusions. Try doing the course on Lernu to really find out what Esperanto is about. You can do correspondence courses here, where more experienced learners will help you. Check out the section above named 'courses'.

Thanks for the information, what you explained is new to me. I already know a fair bit about what Esperanto is about and most of it is good and I agree the basic system is very clever. For the reasons I expressed I find most of the mal- words simplistic and repulsive, and that will never change. You'll never hear me say malgranda, malalta, malamiko or anything of the sort. The very thought of expressing myself in such a simplistic way is revolting to me.

Looking at the explosion of English over the last 60 years it's clear to me that for Esperanto to be the solution to the language challenge it must become as rich as English is, otherwise why should English speakers take the time to learn it?

Can I make a suggestion to the moderators of this forum, if there are any?

I really think we should create a special section entitled - 'Esperanto complaints' or whatever. Any thread that pops up along the same lines of this one should be moved into this section, if it is not already posted there by the creator.

Then, the users of the Forum that actually like Esperanto can then change the settings of the RSS feed so that they receive updates from all sections apart from the 'complaints' section. This would be a welcome relief and it would also cut down on this kind of senseless discussion - particularly with people that haven't even bothered to check out basic facts about the language first.

Of course, if anyone ever feels like a grumble or moan, then they can boldly open up that complaint section, jump in there with characters such as Epikuro and have some fun.

Epikuro57:For the reasons I expressed I find most of the mal- words simplistic and repulsive, and that will never change. You'll never hear me say malgranda, malalta, malamiko or anything of the sort. The very thought of expressing myself in such a simplistic way is revolting to me.

Have you ever learnt any other foreign language? Revulsion is a natural feeling at times when learning any foreign language. Especially if the way of doing things does not entirely match what you're used to.

But, then the queasiness wears off after a bit - you just have to stick with, get into the flow of the new language. Gradually you start to accept the new way of looking at things.

If it really makes you retch violently, though, I'm not sure how I can help. Perhaps just refrain from mentioning that you already use such 'mal-' words on a daily basis in English. But somehow, that's ok. Maybe you've just got used to the rancid stench of those particular words.

Please create the complaints section. Save us from this claptrap.

Make it stop. Somebody make it stop.

Chainy:Have you ever learnt any other foreign language? Revulsion is a natural feeling at times when learning any foreign language. Especially if the way of doing things does not entirely match what you're used to.

Oui, je peut functionner en français, mais ma vocabulaire n'est pas très extensive. I have never felt any revulsion with French and don't with other things in Esperanto either.

Chainy:But, then the queasiness wears off after a bit - you just have to stick with, get into the flow of the new language. Gradually you start to accept the new way of looking at things.

If it really makes you retch violently, though, I'm not sure how I can help. Perhaps just refrain from mentioning that you already use such 'mal-' words on a daily basis in English. But somehow, that's ok. Maybe you've just got used to the rancid stench of those particular words.

You seem to think I don't like Esperanto but that's not the case. I think it has great potential and would have even greater potential if it was as rich a language as English. It that wasn't clear, I apologize.

No formal moderators here, only a lernu team member in residence.

The idea of a "complaints" or "reform proposals" forum has been floated before but it has always been rejected because it might give the (erroneous) impression that Esperanto is somehow open to reform. Of course it is not. It seems silly that a forum for learning French would have a special section for complaining about aspects of French that are not to someone's taste, or reform proposals for improving French.

Of course the idea of "reforming" Esperanto is equally as absurd as the idea of reforming French.

The majority of beginners do not come to the forum to complain about Esperanto; I do wonder whether a complaints forum would do more harm than good, in planting the idea that Esperanto is somehow open to reform.

The best thing to do is not to engage reform-minded users.

Or we could do them a favor and point them to a language that will probably be more to their taste, and more welcoming to their reformist ideas.