Mesaĝoj: 83
Lingvo: English
Miland (Montri la profilon) 2011-januaro-13 11:35:40
Esperanto was designed as a universal second language, not a lingua franca.
As for Latino Sine Flexione, Esperanto arose about the same time as Volapuk and LSF, i.e. the turn of the 20th century, and it appears to have outstripped its competitors. No other AIL has come close, not even attempted reforms of Esperanto like Ido.
sudanglo (Montri la profilon) 2011-januaro-13 12:12:12
The organization, par excellence, which could benefit from Esperanto is the EU which endures a multi-million (if not billion) Euro bill for translation.
I think that you have to find some way to get the number of people with a working knowledge of Esperanto up, before you begin to attempt a frontal attack along the lines of utility.
I just can't see that increase in numbers coming from another route than the widespread intoduction of the language in the schools.
As I have said before the classic arguments against Esperanto (including the paucity of speakers) have no relevance if it is introduced into schools for educational reasons.
ceigered (Montri la profilon) 2011-januaro-13 15:26:10
Miland:As for Latino Sine Flexione, Esperanto arose about the same time as Volapuk and LSF, i.e. the turn of the 20th century, and it appears to have outstripped its competitors. No other AIL has come close, not even attempted reforms of Esperanto like Ido.Exactly why that's being placed with Latin and not Esperanto, since I'm hesitant to call Latino sine Flexione a full-blown language rather than just a dialect of latin (sans said inflections
) - I don't think anyone meant to argue the case of LSF outside of the discussions relevant to Latin.Mind you, on the topic of EOvsLSF, the Blueprints for Babel fellow said that the ease and regularity of LSF's word derivations from Latin combined with the innovations of Esperanto would solve many problems. I don't see that occurring this early in both their lifespans, so it's likely they will at this point in history both be sticking to their niches. Latino sine Flexione, unfortunately for it though, seems to be sticking to the history books with its parent Latin.
Sudanglo:Gentlemen, the thread is 'Promoting Esperanto' and arguments of the form - you could save a lot of money if, or wouldn't it be useful if - have not proved effective in the past.True, this is diverging from that line of thought a bit.
As for educational benefits, what can be listed quite easily, and then with much thought? So far I can think of:
- regular and relatively precise grammar (that is, a morpheme rarely indicates several grammatical roles at once unlike the English -ed
- good for encouraging skills at deciphering the root of a word (e.g. annihilation = ad + nihil + atio(n)), and thus better understanding why such big words are used - thanks to EO's regularly created kunmetitaj vortoj
- teaches one to search for shades of meaning since translating can be done at an earlier stage (e.g. why is "annihilation" different to "utterly destroy", and in what contexts can each be used better?)
Any more? I'm tired so that's my thinking bout this done for now!
T0dd (Montri la profilon) 2011-januaro-13 15:28:56
sudanglo:And for reasons already explained, the educational argument lacks strong empirical support and would face powerful political resistance within the educational establishment. To repeat a point made already, where is the evidence that a pupil who has a year of Esperanto and then a year of some other language will be more skilled in that other language than the student who simply takes two years of that other language? I'm not claiming that it's not true; I have no idea, really. But if the educational argument is to have any hope of succeeding, it had better be true, and the evidence had better be pretty compelling.
I just can't see that increase in numbers coming from another route than the widespread intoduction of the language in the schools.
As I have said before the classic arguments against Esperanto (including the paucity of speakers) have no relevance if it is introduced into schools for educational reasons.
I brought up the Catholic Church case because it is truly global. It's also hierarchical, so that the decision could be made by a small group at the top (or even just one) and then be fairly quickly implemented. And the utility argument ought to be as compelling in the Catholic Church as it is in the EU--moreso, in fact. But as we know, utility arguments don't always work.
Anyway, IF the Catholic Church were to adopt Esperanto as a work language, that in itself would have repercussions far beyond the Church. That's the "promotion" angle in this. In anti-Catholic circles, of course, it would be a strike against Esperanto. Apart from that, it would drastically increase the visibility of the language, and would head off the ill-informed opinions that Esperanto "doesn't work."
Todd
ceigered (Montri la profilon) 2011-januaro-13 15:35:07
darkweasel:Look, I did say I spoke the language like a drunken marauding visigoth did I not?ceigered:Latino sine Flexione has "fac" - I know it's coincidental, but sometimes I do wonder planlingvistoj plan these things haha!Just that fac id means "do it" even in Classical Latin.
Mmm... Maybe the Romans had discovered time travel, acquainted themselves with the English language of the 21st century, and decided to mess around with the minds of future English speakers (this would explain that intermedial/final "c" that doesn't seem to derive from *dheh1-
) 
bartlett22183 (Montri la profilon) 2011-januaro-13 16:16:46
sudanglo:[...]This is more or less the point that Mario Pei made in his 1958 book, "One Language for the World." Pick a language, almost any language will do if it has (or can be made to have) adequate vocabulary for modern life, and teach it worldwide (or at least insofar as possible) to young children. Problem generally solved.
I just can't see that increase in numbers coming from another route than the widespread intoduction of the language in the schools.
As I have said before the classic arguments against Esperanto (including the paucity of speakers) have no relevance if it is introduced into schools for educational reasons.
Certainly, there would be (is) a problem in implementing such a policy (and having enough qualified teachers), but in theory, if nothing else, I think Pei made a very good point. Even if it is not at first done worldwide, but in a region such as the EU, the only two reasonable competitors I myself see are Esperanto and Interlingua (the latter primarily for Europe and the Americas to begin with before it might spread more widely around the world).
danielcg (Montri la profilon) 2011-januaro-14 00:18:22
Regards,
Daniel
T0dd:sudanglo:
Anyway, IF the Catholic Church were to adopt Esperanto as a work language, that in itself would have repercussions far beyond the Church. That's the "promotion" angle in this. In anti-Catholic circles, of course, it would be a strike against Esperanto.
Todd
bagatelo (Montri la profilon) 2011-januaro-14 00:47:33
danielcg:Why "of course"? Are anti-Catholics that irrational?I'd guess they have roughly the same proportion of 'irrationals' as the rest of society, no more no less.
ceigered (Montri la profilon) 2011-januaro-14 01:40:57
danielcg:Why "of course"? Are anti-Catholics that irrational?I'm guessing that if the catholic church as a whole can be seen as evil because of a few in the ranks who abuse power, anything to do with catholicism can be misconstrued to be seen equally as evil.
Also, I believe the vatican would be wise enough to know that if they chose to give Esperanto such unfair support over other alternatives, they would be essentially "backing" it as an International language, and Esperanto would come to be known as the Catholic Church's proposal for a global language. There'd likely be a backlash from those (of the same culture of the church nonetheless) who feel that such a backing is unfair on non-europeans blah blah blah and worst case scenario Esperanto gets some bad press. The Vatican would look silly too for choosing a "failed international language".
erinja (Montri la profilon) 2011-januaro-14 03:06:16
I have heard that in Brazil, Esperanto is closely associated with Spiritism. It gets a boost because people who believe in Spiritism are more inclined to learn it, but it can be a drawback because some people who *don't* believe in Spiritism see it as a "weird Spiritist thing" and don't want anything to do with it.
I haven't heard of any negative repercussions of Esperanto's association with Oomoto in Japan, but I don't know that Oomoto is very well-known even in Japan, so maybe it doesn't really affect anything.