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Esperanto Arguments?

de razlem, 10 de janeiro de 2011

Mensagens: 253

Idioma: English

razlem (Mostrar o perfil) 14 de janeiro de 2011 16:26:18

@ceigered, RiotNrrd
From Unua Libro:
"...an international language—a language unconditionally accepted by everyone, and the common property of the whole world. "

@Todd
"Where is the scientific evidence that the accusative, or the Euro-centric vocabulary, or whatever have been the cause of Esperanto's failure to achieve "its ambitions"? "

My goal is to make a language that's easy and efficient. A nominative-accusative alignment is not required for international communication. The accusative case is inefficient and makes learning the language less easy for speakers who are not used to this concept.

I've also heard from a fair amount of people that the reason they won't learn it is because they don't like how it sounds (one of the more common remarks being, "It sounds like a mix of Spanish and German"). To fix this I varied up the vocabulary sources.

Esperanto does have a culture, but not one that invites people to learn it. The culture is based on the language itself rather than the accomplishments of those who speak the language, whereas in English, actors, writers, and singers have created literature that spawns its own culture (Harry Potter, Lord of the Rings, Star Wars, Star Trek, Lady Gaga, Michael Jackson, Elvis Presley). If I had one suggestion for Esperanto- it would be to release a chart-topping song. Right now, Esperanto is closed off to people who don't share the "internal idea." A huge part of English's success was not the language itself but the movies, books, and music.

@erinja
An alternative (as stated immediately above) is to develop modes of culture transportation other than word of mouth. Folk music isn't going to cut it on a large scale, and neither will films like "Incubus."

erinja (Mostrar o perfil) 14 de janeiro de 2011 16:39:50

razlem:The accusative case is inefficient and makes learning the language less easy for speakers who are not used to this concept.
So in your opinion it's easier to learn a mandatory word order than to learn a grammatical marker?
I've also heard from a fair amount of people that the reason they won't learn it is because they don't like how it sounds (one of the more common remarks being, "It sounds like a mix of Spanish and German"). To fix this I varied up the vocabulary sources.
I have heard of people saying they won't learn it because it sounds "fake". Mixing up the vocabulary sources will probably make it sound even more "fake", unless you do what Volapük did, and distort the words so much that they are no longer recognizable (The two word elements in "Volapük" come from English, but who would recognize that?)

I think that the greatest majority of people decide not to learn Esperanto without even knowing or caring what it sounds like. I think the vast majority of people don't ask "What does it sound like?" before deciding whether to learn it.

Good luck coming up with a chart-topping Esperanto hit. And just because something is popular in pop culture doesn't mean people are rushing out to learn a new language. It would have to be a huge hit for that to work, and when the fad died out, we'd be back where we started.

T0dd (Mostrar o perfil) 14 de janeiro de 2011 16:58:49

razlem:
@Todd
"Where is the scientific evidence that the accusative, or the Euro-centric vocabulary, or whatever have been the cause of Esperanto's failure to achieve "its ambitions"? "

My goal is to make a language that's easy and efficient. A nominative-accusative alignment is not required for international communication. The accusative case is inefficient and makes learning the language less easy for speakers who are not used to this concept.
No one has claimed that the accusative case is required. As for efficiency, how do you quantify that? What is your metric of efficiency, and how is it established that the accusative case is less efficient than other methods of doing the same semantic work? Moreover, the accusative has other uses in Esperanto, such as replacement of prepositions.
I've also heard from a fair amount of people that the reason they won't learn it is because they don't like how it sounds (one of the more common remarks being, "It sounds like a mix of Spanish and German"). To fix this I varied up the vocabulary sources.
Who cares? You call this science? These are just anecdotes selected by you. Have you spoken to a "fair amount of people" who like the way Esperanto sounds, or don't their opinions count? Why "fix" something that you haven't taken a single step to ascertain is broken?
Esperanto does have a culture, but not one that invites people to learn it. The culture is based on the language itself rather than the accomplishments of those who speak the language
Once again, where is your evidence? How much Esperanto literature have you read, before you dismiss it? Novels, poetry, and translations are cultural accomplishments.
Right now, Esperanto is closed off to people who don't share the "internal idea."
That is demonstrably false.
Impressions, anecdotes, and preferences do not add up to science.

Donniedillon (Mostrar o perfil) 14 de janeiro de 2011 17:40:28

razlem:My goal is to make a language that's easy and efficient. A nominative-accusative alignment is not required for international communication. The accusative case is inefficient and makes learning the language less easy for speakers who are not used to this concept.
That is a great goal, however the language you are describing is not Esperanto. Since most of us are here to learn Esperanto you probably wont get much positive feedback on your ideas. There are lots of places to discuss con-langs and even Esperantidos, but this is not really one of them.
Good luck with your reforms.

razlem (Mostrar o perfil) 14 de janeiro de 2011 18:07:01

@erinja
"So in your opinion it's easier to learn a mandatory word order than to learn a grammatical marker?"

Yes.

"I have heard of people saying they won't learn it because it sounds "fake"."

This is largely because of the phonology. You can cut down on a few letters to make it sound more natural, or borrow the vocabulary from different sources that have a better flow.
For example, look at "ekzercaro" (not a prime example of "flow"). Instead, look at the Japanese (renshu) or the Urdu (mashq), which can be Esperantified to "rensxo" or "masxko" respectively.

I have no intention of releasing such a hit myself simply because I lack the resources and time required.

@Todd
"As for efficiency, how do you quantify that?"

-Amount of memorization. A strict SVO syntax is easier to memorize than a variable syntax plus the grammatical marker.

"...such as replacement of prepositions."

-Which prepositions?

"Why "fix" something that you haven't taken a single step to ascertain is broken"

-Esperanto is broken if you're clinging to the idea that it is THE international language (international in the "worldwide" sense). Just the fact that it does not represent any language outside of Europe proves this.

"Impressions, anecdotes, and preferences do not add up to science."

-Yet these are the deciding factors that go into learning a language.

@Donniedillon

The original purpose of this thread was for the Esperanto community to address/dispel my concerns about the language. Seeing as this is the most active group of Esperantists, it was the perfect place to ask.

Genjix (Mostrar o perfil) 14 de janeiro de 2011 18:21:27

the accusative case is confusing.

miajn grandajn tigrojn

often I'll write "mia granda" and then remember I need +jn and go back to add them after.

Often when speaking, I'll forget the +n

And if you removed esti and mi then people would stop saying esperanto sounds like spanish (people compare languages by the very few words they know).

I'm not even sure esti as a verb is needed:
Mi estas granda
Mi as granda

Li estis agisto
Li is agisto

Can someone tell me why that wouldn't work?

RiotNrrd (Mostrar o perfil) 14 de janeiro de 2011 18:21:51

razlem:@ceigered, RiotNrrd
From Unua Libro:
"...an international language—a language unconditionally accepted by everyone, and the common property of the whole world. "
The goal of one man. Not the goal of a language, nor of 100% of todays population of Esperanto speakers.

erinja (Mostrar o perfil) 14 de janeiro de 2011 18:33:37

Genjix:the accusative case is confusing
....
I'm not even sure esti as a verb is needed:
...
Can someone tell me why that wouldn't work?
Sure, it would work. You could definitely do it. It just wouldn't be Esperanto, it would be a new language based on Esperanto.

gyrus (Mostrar o perfil) 14 de janeiro de 2011 18:33:50

Genjix:I'm not even sure esti as a verb is needed:
Mi estas granda
Mi as granda

Li estis agisto
Li is agisto

Can someone tell me why that wouldn't work?
Sure, it would work. And so would so many other reform attempts. The thing is, just because YOU have a potential solution, doesn't mean it's going to be accepted, especially now that Esperanto's been around for a while. Zamenhof himself came up with a reform of Esperanto but in the end rejected it and said he had wasted time on it.

EDIT: Erinja got there before me lango.gif

erinja (Mostrar o perfil) 14 de janeiro de 2011 18:35:51

razlem:The original purpose of this thread was for the Esperanto community to address/dispel my concerns about the language. Seeing as this is the most active group of Esperantists, it was the perfect place to ask.
Are you happy with the responses you have received so far? Is it what you were expecting? And if not, what did you expect to happen differently?

I mean this in a nice way (I do), but it sounds to me like you already have some pretty fixed opinions if you've gone so far as to write your own esperantido. I'm curious as to why you bothered coming here. Surely you must have known in advance that you wouldn't get a positive reception for your ideas?

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