Mesaĝoj: 25
Lingvo: English
T0dd (Montri la profilon) 2011-januaro-13 18:24:14
sudanglo:I have some sympathy for the auxlang cause, but I'm about 80% Raumist, myself. I don't think Raumismo is equivalent to "hobbyist", however.
If we are not trying to change the world (linguistically) are we not no more than indulging ourselves in some harmless hobby - like the trekkies who have fun phrasing stuff in Klingon. They presumably have no wider ambition, but don't we?
Todd
trojo (Montri la profilon) 2011-januaro-13 20:12:02
Esperanto is in some ways inherently political, though obviously it isn't a political party as such. The idea that the economically and militarily strong shouldn't impose their will, culture, religion, and language on the weak-- that we should have a neutral basis for TWO-WAY cultural exchange-- is definitely a political position. And furthermore that political position--la interna ideo-- is just as much a part of Esperanto as the accusative case is... perhaps more so. Indeed, I think that la interna ideo has been an essential component of Esperanto's success relative to other IALs. The interna ideo is something people can get fired up about, whereas Ido's principle of reversibility isn't. Esperanto appeals to a broader spectrum of people than just conlang nerds.
There are many people who strongly believe the exact opposite of course, especially here in the southeastern U.S., and it seems clear to me that THAT is a political belief. Further, they perhaps sense intuitively (and correctly) that Esperanto represents a direct challenge to their jingoism and "exceptionalism", and perhaps that is part of the reason for the widespread hostility towards Esperanto in the English-speaking world.
There are many people who strongly believe the exact opposite of course, especially here in the southeastern U.S., and it seems clear to me that THAT is a political belief. Further, they perhaps sense intuitively (and correctly) that Esperanto represents a direct challenge to their jingoism and "exceptionalism", and perhaps that is part of the reason for the widespread hostility towards Esperanto in the English-speaking world.
NiteMirror (Montri la profilon) 2011-januaro-13 21:13:21
As one who speaks both Esperanto and Klingon (so far, on an intermediate level -- although I am making active efforts to improve), I know very well about attitudes people have about those languages and not always being comfortable admitting you speak them.
I know that only stepping up and fighting ignorance and downright bigoted statements with education is the best way to change things. Perhaps by stepping up and agreeing that their point is fair, but you disagree with it could be a method to use.
I'm not convinced these could be considered as "no wider ambition:" The Shakespeare plays and bible translations, or for theater fans a Klingon Opera produced in the Netherlands (U-theopera.org) and more recently the Klingon Christmas Carol that was put on in several cities across the US (a review of the Chicago production: chicagotheaterblog.com/2010/12/01/review-a-klingon-christmas-carol-commedia-beauregard/)
But that's off topic for here.
My main point is that as easy as it is to slip into words and phrases that others may find hostile. That isn't the way to go about changing people's opinions.
I also know that some people are mired in their linguistic bigotry and won't listen at all. Ignoring them, or just taking subtle shots at small chinks in their argument's armor which they don't see as a direct attack and leaving the main "fight" for another day might be more successful.
To misquote a Terry Pratchett malapropism, You can't change a leopard's shorts (but just maybe you can get the leopard to wash some of the dirt off those shorts though).
I know that only stepping up and fighting ignorance and downright bigoted statements with education is the best way to change things. Perhaps by stepping up and agreeing that their point is fair, but you disagree with it could be a method to use.
sudanglo:If we are not trying to change the world (linguistically) are we not no more than indulging ourselves in some harmless hobby - like the trekkies who have fun phrasing stuff in Klingon. They presumably have no wider ambition, but don't we?Fair enough, I will concede that most tlhIngan Hol speakers have no ambitions to make it an IAL, but I think they wouldn't mind it going beyond the "fun phrasing stuff" phase too, and some may believe it has already gone past that point.
I'm not convinced these could be considered as "no wider ambition:" The Shakespeare plays and bible translations, or for theater fans a Klingon Opera produced in the Netherlands (U-theopera.org) and more recently the Klingon Christmas Carol that was put on in several cities across the US (a review of the Chicago production: chicagotheaterblog.com/2010/12/01/review-a-klingon-christmas-carol-commedia-beauregard/)
But that's off topic for here.
My main point is that as easy as it is to slip into words and phrases that others may find hostile. That isn't the way to go about changing people's opinions.
I also know that some people are mired in their linguistic bigotry and won't listen at all. Ignoring them, or just taking subtle shots at small chinks in their argument's armor which they don't see as a direct attack and leaving the main "fight" for another day might be more successful.
To misquote a Terry Pratchett malapropism, You can't change a leopard's shorts (but just maybe you can get the leopard to wash some of the dirt off those shorts though).
Genjix (Montri la profilon) 2011-januaro-13 22:05:17
People don't react to homemade ketchup because you're not actively lobbying them to.
People react to Esperanto because you think they should speak it.
So they act defensive.
For what it's worth, I haven't seen any E-o hatred. People I've spoken to so far where I've accidentally dropped Esperanto have thought it's mighty cool. I met a nurse recently who told me she had met a well known Esperantist woman recently in Germany and had been considering learning it herself. I met another guy who asked me for learning material because he heard of it before and wants to learn it. so there.
no pressure from me. no deliberate raising or showing off knowing esperanto. then again, im well adjusted and travel lots, so it might just come off as a cultured interest rather than zealotry when i mention esperanto.
People react to Esperanto because you think they should speak it.
So they act defensive.
For what it's worth, I haven't seen any E-o hatred. People I've spoken to so far where I've accidentally dropped Esperanto have thought it's mighty cool. I met a nurse recently who told me she had met a well known Esperantist woman recently in Germany and had been considering learning it herself. I met another guy who asked me for learning material because he heard of it before and wants to learn it. so there.
no pressure from me. no deliberate raising or showing off knowing esperanto. then again, im well adjusted and travel lots, so it might just come off as a cultured interest rather than zealotry when i mention esperanto.
erinja (Montri la profilon) 2011-januaro-13 22:46:20
I rarely mention that I speak Esperanto so it only comes up when it's unavoidable. But the reaction of "that's hilarious" is much more common than "that's cool", and I don't really enjoy being the butt of jokes about it, so I avoid mentioning it.
The MIT Esperanto club had a table at MIT's annual language and culture fair, a few years back. I was surprised at some of the negative reactions we got. No one was forced to stop at our table and talk to us and we weren't shoving fliers in anyone's face or anything. Some people stopped and asked us what it is, and we told them, and they became very defensive. I got this reaction mainly from foreign students who aren't native speakers of English. They tended to be the ones who insisted most strongly that English is (and should be) the international language.
I never push anyone to learn Esperanto. At the absolute maximum I tell them what it is, and if the conversation continues to what you can do with it, then I tell them that I have personally found it cool and fun (and I mention what I have done with it).
The MIT Esperanto club had a table at MIT's annual language and culture fair, a few years back. I was surprised at some of the negative reactions we got. No one was forced to stop at our table and talk to us and we weren't shoving fliers in anyone's face or anything. Some people stopped and asked us what it is, and we told them, and they became very defensive. I got this reaction mainly from foreign students who aren't native speakers of English. They tended to be the ones who insisted most strongly that English is (and should be) the international language.
I never push anyone to learn Esperanto. At the absolute maximum I tell them what it is, and if the conversation continues to what you can do with it, then I tell them that I have personally found it cool and fun (and I mention what I have done with it).
Miland (Montri la profilon) 2011-januaro-13 23:25:11
Perhaps we can get a handle on this by asking: historically, who have been the 'True Enemies' of Esperanto? Dictators, for a start; Hitler and Stalin didn't like it. But Esperanto took its first steps in the Tsarist empire which was no democracy, and historically it was quite active in Communist countries, though with a good deal of state interference.
Linguistic chauvinists can be enemies; it was the French delegate to the League of Nations who blocked Iran's proposal for the adoption of Esperanto. Nowadays, however, the French delegations at world congresses are among the strongest.
Since the interna ideo is at the heart of Esperanto, as Trojo pointed out a few messages or hours ago, we might expect that people opposed to the idea would be enemies of it. But not always; insofar as the connection between the internal idea and the language is lost (something which I believe Zamenhof opposed), and Esperanto is seen as a European cultural possession, it may even become the province of people with racist sympathies, and I believe there may have been disturbing signs of this here and there.
So perhaps one could say, in sum: the true enemies of Esperanto are the enemies of the interna ideo, who oppose the idea in their hearts!
Linguistic chauvinists can be enemies; it was the French delegate to the League of Nations who blocked Iran's proposal for the adoption of Esperanto. Nowadays, however, the French delegations at world congresses are among the strongest.
Since the interna ideo is at the heart of Esperanto, as Trojo pointed out a few messages or hours ago, we might expect that people opposed to the idea would be enemies of it. But not always; insofar as the connection between the internal idea and the language is lost (something which I believe Zamenhof opposed), and Esperanto is seen as a European cultural possession, it may even become the province of people with racist sympathies, and I believe there may have been disturbing signs of this here and there.
So perhaps one could say, in sum: the true enemies of Esperanto are the enemies of the interna ideo, who oppose the idea in their hearts!
T0dd (Montri la profilon) 2011-januaro-14 00:37:39
I do mention Esperanto, and the reactions I get range from indulgent amusement to scorn. But I still force myself to mention it, because it's possible that the fact that I mentioned it will plant a seed in someone's mind.
To my knowledge, I have not, in 25 years, succeeded in motivating a single person to learn Esperanto. I have taught mini-courses, organized and run a club, discussed it with college students, made YouTube videos, published in Esperanto (not that that would be likely to influence a non-Esperantist), and talked about it when it seemed relevant to the conversation. I also created a little freeware tutorial program for MSDOS, way back in the day. I sent it out like a message in a bottle on FIDOnet, for anyone who remembers what that was. A couple of years ago, some people in Brazil asked me for permission to expand on it and update it for Windows. I gave permission, but I have no idea whether they actually did anything with it. I blogged for a while in Esperanto.
I'd like to say that the true enemy of Esperanto is ignorance, but that doesn't quite capture it. The enemy is willful ignorance--but then, willful ignorance is the enemy of a lot of things that are good.
And there have been lengthy periods when I didn't to much of anything with Esperanto. Over the years, I've had to ask myself what I'm trying to accomplish and what I hope to get out of my efforts. I'm not, by temperament, very "messianic". At some point I began to think that the best way for me to support Esperanto would be to keep using it, studying it, buying books--in short, I should do my part to keep it going. Because the other enemy of Esperanto is despair.
Todd
To my knowledge, I have not, in 25 years, succeeded in motivating a single person to learn Esperanto. I have taught mini-courses, organized and run a club, discussed it with college students, made YouTube videos, published in Esperanto (not that that would be likely to influence a non-Esperantist), and talked about it when it seemed relevant to the conversation. I also created a little freeware tutorial program for MSDOS, way back in the day. I sent it out like a message in a bottle on FIDOnet, for anyone who remembers what that was. A couple of years ago, some people in Brazil asked me for permission to expand on it and update it for Windows. I gave permission, but I have no idea whether they actually did anything with it. I blogged for a while in Esperanto.
I'd like to say that the true enemy of Esperanto is ignorance, but that doesn't quite capture it. The enemy is willful ignorance--but then, willful ignorance is the enemy of a lot of things that are good.
And there have been lengthy periods when I didn't to much of anything with Esperanto. Over the years, I've had to ask myself what I'm trying to accomplish and what I hope to get out of my efforts. I'm not, by temperament, very "messianic". At some point I began to think that the best way for me to support Esperanto would be to keep using it, studying it, buying books--in short, I should do my part to keep it going. Because the other enemy of Esperanto is despair.
Todd
ceigered (Montri la profilon) 2011-januaro-14 00:49:06
erinja:learning Inuktitut, riding a unicycleOh for once I'd LOVE someone to scorn me when I say "Oh last night I was looking at (obscurelanguageXwhichisstillspokenbutonlyusefulifyoulikegoingtotheextremitiesoftheearthtotalkwithnearnonexistentpeople)".
I think "made-up language", while technically correct, has too much childish connotations in English, and I'm assuming other "sensible" European languages, thus why "made-up" makes you look like you're living in fantasy land.
In Australia, you're lucky though, no one really knows it, and with crazily named crazes like Zumba taking off, "Esperanto" doesn't sound too bad now even if it's mistaken for a religious cult! Then again, what do I prefer more? Hearing the word Zumba repeated and gawked over 20 times per hour while Esperanto is now somewhat cooler, or Esperanto going back to uncool but not having ears bleed? Hard choice!
(no offence to Zumba-fans, but massmarketing has its tolls)T0dd: The case discussed by the NYT is the idea that dietary saturated fat is bad for us, which has never had much scientific supportAwesome... NI IRU MCDONALDSEN!
Evildela (Montri la profilon) 2011-januaro-14 02:05:58
Hey leave Zumba alone, I do Zumba and Esperanto... It funny though me and my mate Kaja speak Esperanto when ever we meet, at shops in the trains ktp... we never get any negative comments, and when people ask we sometimes explain it, or we sometimes have fun. We fully had this guy on the train believing we came from a small country called Mojosio in Europe boarding Russia, and when he asked why I had no accent I just said I was first Gen Australian and I learnt from my parents while my mate put on and Esperanto / Russian sounding accent =P
ceigered (Montri la profilon) 2011-januaro-14 03:02:56
Hahahaha! Brilliant! Although I don't know if that's helping Esperanto, but you still get kudos for pulling off something so far fetched (I doubt you get karma points though )
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