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A definition and some questions (teĥniko, anta)

de ceigered, 2011-januaro-22

Mesaĝoj: 11

Lingvo: English

ceigered (Montri la profilon) 2011-januaro-22 08:36:34

I was looking at the definition for "elektroniko" here at lernu!:

elektroniko (elektronik-o)

teĥniko uzanta la proprecojn de elektronoj (= bazaj unuoj de elektro)

I had some delayed questions but this definition put a whole bunch of concerns together for me.

1) Teĥniko v.s. Teknologio.
Teknologio's EO-EO definition is "The whole of formal methods, resources and remedies dedicated to some goal and mechanically or industrially reapplicable."

Teĥniko's EO-EO definition is "The whole of artistic and occupational processes and procedures".

Yet, at the start of Teknologio's defintion it has "evitinde - teĥniko". Why would Teknologio be worthy of evasion if it's definition is different to teĥniko by a longshot?

2) Anta aŭ Ante?
What's a good guide on when to use either again? I find myself normally using "ante" when I mean it verbally (e.g. "a tool using petroleum to power it" (not a good example mind you), and I normally use "anta" when I want to describe a state (la leganta homo) etc.

So I'd logically form sentences like "La leganta homo manĝante pomon sidis sur grandega ora seĝo".

But I've been seeing people use exclusively "anta", so my confusion's been set back in.

3) Propreco
The trait of owning? Thus the definition is "Technology that utilises traits revolving around electrons" or something like that?

I ask this here since this stuff gets complicated in English let alone another language I only half understand rido.gif

sudanglo (Montri la profilon) 2011-januaro-22 10:15:44

Ceiger, -anta versus -ante is bound to be covered in depth in PMEG. I expect someone will helpfully post a specific link. But one can say immediately that it has little to do with a state versus action.

Mi aŭdis la infanojn ludantaj en la apuda ĝardeno.

Zorge tenante la bombon inter ambaŭ manoj mi malrapide avancis en la direkto al la rivero.

Nesciante kion fari, mi staris fiksita antaŭ la pordo, ĝis mi aŭdis sonon de iu venanta en mia direkto.

ceigered (Montri la profilon) 2011-januaro-22 10:52:03

Ah, that was extremely helpful Sudanglo, you've jogged my memory with those examples.

Ante's describing the manner of the action (while kicking, he ate an apple), and anta otherwise (the apple was eaten by the man kicking an apple), yes?

Thanks for that!

Miland (Montri la profilon) 2011-januaro-22 12:18:00

In my view teĥniko (or tekniko (which can mean either "technique" or the set of techniques for doing something) is not evitinda. PIV 2005 defines teknologio as the science of the tools and methods used for making things that require tekniko. Thus it is an academic subject. Perhaps the relationship between tekniko and teknologio is analogous to that between languages and linguistics.

Proprecoj means "properties". Think back to school physics exam questions e.g. 'What are the properties of an electron?' In my view ecoj might have done just as well. PIV 2005 defines propreco as eco ekskluzive apartenanta al io, "quality (or property!) belonging exclusively to something".

ceigered (Montri la profilon) 2011-januaro-22 15:18:59

Thanks for that rundown on the meanings. I was under the impression that "tekonologio" was being called evitinda, but nonetheless it seems that indeed there are substantial differences in their meaning.

So basically, one could translate the first definition as

"A technology, an application of technology, using the properties (personal-traits) of electrons"

Would that be more literal?

Hispanio (Montri la profilon) 2011-januaro-22 15:31:50

ceigered:Ah, that was extremely helpful Sudanglo, you've jogged my memory with those examples.

Ante's describing the manner of the action (while kicking, he ate an apple), and anta otherwise (the apple was eaten by the man kicking an apple), yes?

Thanks for that!
I hope I don't make a mistake, but "-anta" is used when the subject of the main clause is different from the subject of the subordinate clause, and "-ante" when both subjects are the same.

"Mi vidis lin promenanta". I was having a look out, or making another thing, and I was seeing him walking.

"Mi vidis lin promenante". I was walking and I've seen him having a look out, or making another thing.

Excuse me if my English is not good.

ceigered (Montri la profilon) 2011-januaro-22 15:36:28

Mmm, I would have translated them as (with my new knowledge rido.gif):
"I saw him walking (he was the one walking, not me)"
"While I was walking I saw him/I saw him while walking (I was walking)".

But of course, if "lin" needs his "promenanta" to have the accusative, then I guess the "promenanta" applies to "mi" as well, but that would sound a bit strange since it's not near the "mi"....

To the more experienced fellows, if he was the walking fellow, would it have to be "lin promenantan"?

Hispanio (Montri la profilon) 2011-januaro-22 15:41:57

I don't know, I saw this example in a lernu! page. Or in PMEG. Well, I don't remember senkulpa.gif

Miland (Montri la profilon) 2011-januaro-22 16:50:38

ceigered:one could translate the first definition as "A technology..
Sounds all right. The wiki definition of technology is "the usage and knowledge of tools, techniques, crafts, systems or methods of organization in order to solve a problem or create an artistic perspective." So perhaps the distinction from tekniko need not be hard and fast.

sudanglo (Montri la profilon) 2011-januaro-22 17:42:34

Ceiger, you would find it profitable to browse PMEG from time to time.

I agree that it is not that easy to find an answer to a specific question in a hurry since the index can sometimes be less that helpful, however, after a while you would know the different sections and be able to quickly navigate to the section you need.

Somewhere in PMEG, I'm pretty sure, you will find an explanation of the difference between 'vidis lin promenanta' and 'vidis lin promenantan' along the lines that one corresponds to 'ke li promenis' and the other to 'kiam li promenis'.

Mi renkontis mian amikon revenantan de Londono - removes the ambiguity that might be felt with 'revenante'.

Compare with mi renkontis ŝin survoje al London. Is it absolutely clear who is London-bound?

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