Postitused: 33
Keel: English
T0dd (Näita profiili) 23. jaanuar 2011 20:08.15
Miland:In my view you could have Mi grimpis la eskalon, but in that case the ending -n would be a substitute for a preposition; it would not be the case that eskalo were a direct object of grimpi.GRIMPI is tricky for anglophones because we tend to think of climbing as something we do to something, such as a mountain, or a ladder, or a fence. If, however, we remember that it's a verb of motion, like go, walk, run, crawl, then it makes more sense that it's intransitive.
My rule of thumb is that if a verb seems like the sort that could be either transitive or intransitive, and is used both ways in English, it's probably intransitive in Esperanto. That works for most of the ones on Jordan's list (Note that there's an error in the example column where ĈESIGI should be).
Jordan also points out, in the same book, that there are a few Esperanto verbs that are used both transitively and intransitively, without affixes. PASI and FUMI are the ones that come to mind, but there are two or three others.
Chainy (Näita profiili) 23. jaanuar 2011 20:29.01
T0dd:GRIMPI is tricky for anglophones because we tend to think of climbing as something we do to something, such as a mountain, or a ladder, or a fence. If, however, we remember that it's a verb of motion, like go, walk, run, crawl, then it makes more sense that it's intransitive.I'm a little unsure about the 'intransitive' nature of 'grimpi'. There are examples of it being used in a transitive way in the Tekstaro. And 'surgrimpi' is used many times in a transitive way in the Tekstaro. (surgrimpi monton). Maybe this is the influence of English speakers, who knows. But then again, I wonder if this is really so difficult for speakers of other languages to understand?!
In any case, as Miland puts it, you could justify it gramatically by claiming that the use of the accusative replaces the preposition! And so readers can insert the preposition they see fit in their own minds when reading the sentence (?!).
Miland (Näita profiili) 23. jaanuar 2011 20:53.09
Chainy:I'm a little unsure about the 'intransitive' nature of 'grimpi'.I must admit that I was surprised myself to find out that grimpi was intransitive. But it's not the first time that I've had this experience; it happened with plaĉi. The latter is intransitive because it doesn't take a direct object, though I've seen plaĉas min on the internet, no doubt intended as equivalent to plaĉas al mi by the writer.
Genjix (Näita profiili) 23. jaanuar 2011 21:43.40
I was asking where a verb has 2 subjects
TIGRO estas BESTO
VI fariĝis/iĝis POMO
MI restas TIE
but (according to simpla vortaro):
MI similas IUN
someone once explained it to me as equivalence- you can re-order them and get the same meaning... However that litmus test as ceigered pointed out, doesn't always work:
BESTO estas TIGRO
POMO fariĝis/iĝis VI
TIE restas MI
As you can see, it doesn't really work for the first 2.
IU similas MIN
But it does there, yet simili DOES take the -n
I figure it's only with verbs describing equivalences of states... but how can I know which verbs are like this?
BTW I understand transitive/intransitive perfectly well and am not too worried, as it's mostly the same as in English and if not then it's fine usually to bend the rules (people understand).
I'm asking about verbs which can take 2 nouns/whatever and not need 1 to have -n affixed.
Miland (Näita profiili) 23. jaanuar 2011 22:56.36
Genjix:... and nobody answered my question...If I have understood your original question correctly, the verbs you cite do not usually indicate equivalence, that is, they are not usually logically symmetric relations.
Here's one exception: estas might be used to mean "equals" or "is equivalent to", within a given context. In that case it might be considered a symmetric relation; if we say, for example, that on a certain date, the official rate of exchange means that ok usonaj dolaroj estas kvin britaj pundoj, this is equivalent to kvin britaj pundoj estas ok usonaj dolaroj on that date. Of course buying and selling rates of exchange at specific dealers are liable to be different.
Genjix (Näita profiili) 23. jaanuar 2011 23:36.56
And how can I tell which verbs take -n when there is 2 subjects... Or is there a memorable list?
erinja (Näita profiili) 23. jaanuar 2011 23:37.51
All horses are animals but not all animals are horses.
Scalex (Näita profiili) 24. jaanuar 2011 1:24.07
erinja:Even "estas" isn't really entirely symmetrical. "Ĉevalo estas besto" (a horse is an animal) is different than "Besto estas ĉevalo" (an animal is a horse).Preserving a degree of flexibility of word order is an important part of esperanto. I would say that, to necessarily speak about every horse or animal, you would need to use "cxiu" next to either besto or cxevalo. I would say that "cxevalo estas besto" and "besto estas cxevalo" should have the same meaning, and that to talk about a horse being an example of an animal or not, either cxiu or ekzemplo de should be used.
All horses are animals but not all animals are horses.
Genjix (Näita profiili) 24. jaanuar 2011 2:39.37
T0dd (Näita profiili) 24. jaanuar 2011 3:52.31
With ESTI, word order matters when there are explicit or implicit quantifiers, as in English. HUNDO ESTAS BESTO means, implicitly, that all dogs are animals, but does not imply that all animals are dogs, as erinja pointed out. That use of ESTI is asymmetric. On the other hand, ZAMENHOF ESTAS LA KREINTO DE ESPERANTO involves a different use of the verb ESTI (the "is of identity"), and it is symmetric. But ESTI is always intransitive, whether it's used symmetrically or asymmetrically. It's largely a matter of traditional classical grammar, handed down for centuries. It's why modern grammarians tend to use the more logical concept of valency, rather than transitivity.