Mesaĝoj: 22
Lingvo: English
johmue (Montri la profilon) 2011-januaro-27 14:12:11
Miland:According to PIV 2005, taski is transitive, so we could say Mi taskis mian studenton verki eseon.Yes you're right. Nevertheless "taskigi iun" is very common in the spoken language in my experience.
ceigered (Montri la profilon) 2011-januaro-27 14:50:14
Miland:According to PIV 2005, taski is transitive, so we could say Mi taskis mian studenton verki eseon.A minor question - is there any importance with who or what's being assigned?
E.g if I assign a student to an essay task, is that any different to assigning an essay task to a student? Taski seems to share the exact same meaning as "assign", and assign ("sign to") seems to merely mean to sign something with something else to show a relationship (for a more pure etymological explanation).
Taskigi, to me at least, sounds wrong, because you're causing the student to do the assigning. But from reading this there appears to be some rule I'm not familiar with where "-igi" can be used to mean "-atigi" or "itigi" or something passive like that. But I'm not sure why such a thing exists when we have "estigi" or prior mentioned "atigi" etc. Seems like an unnecessary shortcut form which can only add to the confusion if "igi" can mean "cause (something to do something)" and then "cause (something to be having something done to it)".
sudanglo (Montri la profilon) 2011-januaro-28 11:34:50
But taski doesn't seem to me to be the best translation, whereas mi devigis la studenton verki eseon is a pretty perfect fit.
Consider: my girlfriend made me give up smoking - mia amikino devigis min ĉesi fumi.
I don't think you would say mia amikino taskis al mi ĉesi fumi. She might however taski al vi butikumi dum ŝia foresto.
ceigered (Montri la profilon) 2011-januaro-28 13:03:17
sudanglo:All the citations under taski in NPIV are of the form taski al iu fari ion'.Not in class projects where certain students are assigned a duty, but who does that duty ultimately doesn't matter as long as everyone does their fair share. But that goes under the topic of "subtleties in meaning"
But taski doesn't seem to me to be the best translation, whereas mi devigis la studenton verki eseon is a pretty perfect fit.
. (Given that it's a studento, I guess it could likely be a university situation, thus it's even less strange if a tutor is giving a group of students tasks, and giving them a recommendation (but not set in concrete) on which students do what part of the group assignment - thank god in languages I haven't had to do any group assignments like that, unlike business!)The fact that taski al iu fari ion is the main way it's said interests me - is taski as transitive a new fad, or always been there but just not really used that way? If so I guess EO does not handle "assigning" like English does, where the doer can be assigned to the task and the other way around as well.
Miland (Montri la profilon) 2011-januaro-28 13:59:07
sudanglo: taski doesn't seem to me to be the best translation, whereas mi devigis la studenton verki eseon is a pretty perfect fit.I would say that it depends on the relationship of power concerned; devigi might well apply to the tasks set for schoolchildren who could be punished for failure to complete them. An adult education class might be another matter.
sudanglo (Montri la profilon) 2011-januaro-28 14:16:21
Mi klopodas bildigi al mi la tagon kiam vi posedos propran ekzempleron de NPIV.
Oh, just looked in REVO under 'taski' the quote there is from Zamenhof - go see.
ceigered (Montri la profilon) 2011-januaro-28 14:34:54
sudanglo:Hardly a new fad, Ceiger, as one of the quotes is from Zamenhof himself. In any case the structure 'X-i al iu ion' is fairly common in Esperanto.Well I was actually concerned about something like "taski ion al iu" rather than the "X-i al iu ion" bit. But that Zamenhoffian quote was useful nonetheless, as it contains the transitive use I was looking for
I take it the quote translates to "They could not guess the matter which she tasked to them" BTW?
Gesar (Montri la profilon) 2011-januaro-29 23:37:48
The ig thing makes sense, but the gist I'm getting is to try and avoid using it, which is fair enough. As you've pointed out, there will be ways of getting around it quite naturally.
I do have a question about the 'stop' one though. What if the sentence was 'I decided to stop attending my lecture course'? (And I didn't want to use the word 'ke'). There's no infinitive of 'to stop attending' so we can't do that, and having the infinitive of 'to stop' and 'to attend' next to each other is rather messy, in my opinion.
Would the translation 'Mi decidis cxesi cxeestantan' (I decided to stop "being in the state of attending") work?
danielcg (Montri la profilon) 2011-januaro-29 23:40:22
Regards,
Daniel
Gesar:Thanks for the responses, everyone. I'm getting better at the -uj thing!
The ig thing makes sense, but the gist I'm getting is to try and avoid using it, which is fair enough. As you've pointed out, there will be ways of getting around it quite naturally.
I do have a question about the 'stop' one though. What if the sentence was 'I decided to stop attending my lecture course'? (And I didn't want to use the word 'ke'). There's no infinitive of 'to stop attending' so we can't do that, and having the infinitive of 'to stop' and 'to attend' next to each other is rather messy, in my opinion.
Would the translation 'Mi decidis cxesi cxeestantan' (I decided to stop "being in the state of attending") work?
erinja (Montri la profilon) 2011-januaro-30 02:25:43
There's no grammatical problem with having two infinitives in a row, and it's something that's frequently done.
For example I did a little search on Google and I rapidly found "Mi ne povas ĉesi danci" (I can't stop dancing), "Mi promesas ĉesi uzi Internet Explorer" (I promise to stop using Internet Explorer), "Vi devus ĉesi fumi" (You should stop smoking), etc.
If you were to say "Mi decidis ĉesi ĉeestanta", that would be wrong; it would mean "I, while attending, decided to stop".
If you said "Mi decidis ĉesi ĉeestantan", it doesn't work grammatically, because ĉesi is an intranstive verb and it can't take an object. So "ĉeestanta" certainly can't have the -n ending, since "ĉesi" can't have an object.